Aly Read on Risk, Reward, and Rising to the Top

[00:00:00] It's so easy just to say, we're going to do this and we're not going to do it now, but not really give them the why.

[00:00:05] The why is crucial to make people come along the journey with you and just believe in ultimately what you're trying to do.

[00:00:11] Welcome to Scale Sessions, the podcast that helps revenue leaders like you boost sales and revenue to achieve business growth within the trenches insights.

[00:00:20] We can skip the fluff and focus on real world strategies you can use right away.

[00:00:24] Each episode brings you actionable takeaways from sales and revenue leaders navigating growth challenges like you.

[00:00:31] Let's dive into today's session and scale up your success.

[00:00:35] Our guest today is Aly Reed, the Chief Commercial Officer at Seedlegals.

[00:00:39] With over eight years of experience building and scaling high-performance sales teams across fintech and legal tech,

[00:00:46] Aly is at the forefront of empowering founders to raise capital and scale their businesses faster.

[00:00:51] She's led incredible transformations at Seedlegals and Funding Circle, currently overseeing a team of 35 in sales and marketing at Seedlegals.

[00:01:00] She's also played a major role in helping over 35,000 startups to raise more than $2 billion.

[00:01:06] Aly, welcome to Scale Sessions.

[00:01:08] Thank you so much. Nice to be here.

[00:01:10] So, we thought we'd kick off by telling us a little bit about yourself and your career at Seedlegals.

[00:01:15] So, I joined Seedlegals almost three years ago.

[00:01:19] I came in over as Head of Sales and as of January this year, I've been the Chief Commercial Officer.

[00:01:26] So, remit has widened to sales, account management, marketing, partnerships and our growth initiatives.

[00:01:32] So, fairly big remit.

[00:01:33] For those that don't know, Seedlegals helps founders start, grow, fundraise, scale their businesses.

[00:01:39] So, we try to simplify all of the complexities from being a startup founder, simplifying the processes and basically making it open to everybody.

[00:01:47] It will help people with their fundraising documents, legal contracts and documents, R&D tax claims, option schemes, obviously fundraising as I said, advisory services and so much more.

[00:01:58] So, Ali, straight out of Manchester University into an account management role and then into a Chief Commercial Officer role in 10 years.

[00:02:04] That's pretty impressive.

[00:02:06] Can you tell us a little bit about that journey and some of the pivotal moments on it?

[00:02:11] So, when I joined in the sales team, I was the first female in a 15 male strong team.

[00:02:17] So, I felt like I had a point to prove.

[00:02:19] My focus was definitely on trying to beat the male counterparts.

[00:02:22] I'm such a competitive person as well.

[00:02:24] So, I really have felt like I had to, as I say, prove this point.

[00:02:26] Ended up being the top salesperson for like four quarters in a row.

[00:02:29] So, within kind of a year and a half or just under, opportunity came up to start managing a small team.

[00:02:35] And from there, just opportunities came about, team scaled, COVID happened.

[00:02:40] I took on a new challenge, basically debt collecting for Funding Circle at the time versus sales, which wouldn't have been my ambition in my career pre-COVID,

[00:02:49] but actually was one of the best things that happened and probably one of my most favorite times there because I got to tear up basically a team that wasn't working when COVID happened and just tore it up, started again and grew that team to like 60 plus people in the space of days at the height of COVID.

[00:03:04] But I guess like three things that probably resonated throughout my whole career was saying yes to things, taking on opportunities, just being open to it, taking risks, even if you're not necessarily that keen on them, just, yeah, see what happens and just being ready at the point of any opportunity that can arise.

[00:03:22] So, just getting yourself in the best position possible.

[00:03:24] Can I ask one quick question about that?

[00:03:27] What's been the biggest risk you've taken, do you think, in your career?

[00:03:29] I would say that moved to collections, to be honest, because as I was sales through and through, the collections team were a different part of the business, never would have had any ambition to go over there at any point.

[00:03:40] And I feel like people have a really clear view as to what career looks like.

[00:03:43] And if you're in a sales role, you know, you want to be a chief commercial officer, head of sales or what there's like a really linear path.

[00:03:48] But actually the head of collections opportunity came up in the height of the pandemic.

[00:03:53] And actually when I looked at the skills required to do that role well, they were so similar to sales.

[00:03:57] It was managing a big team, managing the processes, managing KPIs, setting targets rather than lending money.

[00:04:04] It was collecting money in.

[00:04:06] So, there were so many similarities that actually it kind of made me realize that it's a risk.

[00:04:10] But it's, you know, being open to change and actually seeing what you enjoy about a role and what you're good at.

[00:04:16] And then maybe you can open more doors than you expect at the outset.

[00:04:19] What I found really interesting about your career is that you've had really good tenure.

[00:04:23] So, you were at Funding Circle for over seven years.

[00:04:25] I'm terribly fickle.

[00:04:26] I tend to have three years and I'm on to the next day.

[00:04:29] What's made you stay so committed to these companies?

[00:04:32] I think being in sales, you have to have belief for whatever it is you're selling.

[00:04:37] So, having a strong passion for that business or that product or that service is definitely key.

[00:04:42] So, at Funding Circle, the mission was so clear as to what we were trying to achieve.

[00:04:46] We wanted to have global domination over the peer-to-peer lending space and just be the UK's best and biggest SME loan provider.

[00:04:55] At Seedlegals, like I mentioned before, we are trying to democratize the complexities of legal services for startups and just make entrepreneurship available to the masses.

[00:05:03] So, having an affinity for the mission is definitely the first thing.

[00:05:07] I think also when you feel like you're making a tangible difference to the people that you work with.

[00:05:13] So, at both companies, like Seedlegals, we're constantly hearing from founders just how impactful our platform and our offering is.

[00:05:19] And many people who've started a business before wish they'd come across Seedlegals earlier and just don't know how they did it.

[00:05:25] So, when you get that kind of feedback, it obviously makes you feel that you're doing something good for society.

[00:05:30] And similarly, at Funding Circle, with all the loans that we lent out, we used to be able to directly see the impact in terms of however much we'd lent, how many jobs that I'd created and how many businesses were created off the back of that.

[00:05:40] So, yeah, having a strong affinity to the mission for sure.

[00:05:43] And then because obviously each of those roles and tenured companies have come with new challenges and opportunities, it almost feels that every one to two years, it's like a new era at the same company.

[00:05:53] So, it feels different and there's, as I say, different challenges that you can take on.

[00:05:57] So, it feels fresh, you're not just stuck somewhere for that long.

[00:06:00] And so, what was it that made you think, I'm actually going to move on from Funding Circle to Seedlegals after those nearly eight years?

[00:06:06] Yeah, I think it's because I was already thinking before COVID, I'd been there five-ish years at the time.

[00:06:11] I was thinking, what's my next step?

[00:06:13] There wasn't an obvious necessarily next step and I was happy but comfortable.

[00:06:16] So, I was kind of needing a new challenge.

[00:06:18] COVID came along, moved over to collections and loved it.

[00:06:22] Obviously, COVID was just the most craziest time in all of our lives probably.

[00:06:25] So, I was there for 18 months and I remember my boss at the time was seeing me as his succession plan within the collections department and that might have been taken over recoveries or litigation, for example.

[00:06:36] And I just didn't see myself going any further down the collections path.

[00:06:40] I kind of wanted to get back into more revenue sales.

[00:06:44] So, then I thought rather than moving back into sales at Funding Circle, that would have been quite strange.

[00:06:49] Time to move on, new challenge.

[00:06:51] New chapter.

[00:06:52] New chapter, exactly.

[00:06:53] You did business at university, right?

[00:06:54] Yes.

[00:06:55] So, then the whole Seed Legal thing is quite entrepreneurial.

[00:06:59] What you talk about that passion after working at Funding Circle, what fueled you to go, I'm really passionate about this?

[00:07:05] What was that?

[00:07:06] So, yes, so Funding Circle was more SMEs.

[00:07:08] Obviously, Seed Legal was very much the startup space.

[00:07:11] And if I'm completely honest, I didn't know a huge amount about equity fundraising other than we used to sell against it at Funding Circle and say, don't give any equity away.

[00:07:20] Don't be so silly.

[00:07:21] Like, take on a loose.

[00:07:21] So, anyway, it was still fintech.

[00:07:24] So, anyway, it was still fintech.

[00:07:25] Legal tech definitely wasn't what I was thinking about moving into.

[00:07:28] So, it's still more fintech for me.

[00:07:29] And then moving into the startup space.

[00:07:31] Obviously, the businesses that my team speak to each day now are some of the most innovative people that you could possibly speak to.

[00:07:38] And some of the ideas are obviously not sure about, but they could be the next revolute or the next flack or, you know, you just don't know who you're going to speak to each day.

[00:07:45] Can I imagine that's quite like for your team?

[00:07:47] I'd imagine if they're not really knowledgeable or they can't, like they're speaking to like founders and entrepreneurs who really know their stuff, they must have to come across really well and they must have to really know their shit.

[00:08:00] Yeah.

[00:08:00] Basically, does that make it harder?

[00:08:02] Does that make it a challenge?

[00:08:03] Like when you're skilling them up or getting them, you know, to be good at their job?

[00:08:07] So, it's definitely a steeper learning curve and see legals than I was expecting because we work across so many different product areas.

[00:08:13] And because we are legal tech and there's so many different nuances to each of these products, we have to make sure that we understand the products, the implications.

[00:08:21] And so, we have an expert team who are the mostly law graduates who actually know what they're talking about.

[00:08:27] But we obviously have to be able to pitch it in the right way and make sure it's the right product or service, whatever the founder is looking for.

[00:08:32] So, it's definitely a steep learning curve for anyone who joins.

[00:08:35] But the onboarding process is quite rigorous.

[00:08:37] We've had many people start and they just think, I'm never going to get this.

[00:08:41] And then, month in, finally clicks.

[00:08:43] Got a whole new lingo.

[00:08:44] Yeah, exactly.

[00:08:45] Your legal experts are like a sales engineer.

[00:08:47] Yeah.

[00:08:49] Basically, they're to help you out.

[00:08:50] I think one of the challenges in tech is still diversity.

[00:08:54] And you talked about joining a sales team.

[00:08:55] I know it was a while ago and you were the first woman in that team.

[00:08:58] One of the concerns there is about the whole investment piece is that only 2% of VC investment goes to female founders.

[00:09:07] How are you seeing that at seed legals?

[00:09:08] Are you seeing the tide turning?

[00:09:10] Is there anything that we're starting to do to really address that?

[00:09:12] So, there's no surprise.

[00:09:13] There's definitely still biases in the market.

[00:09:16] And there's definitely more challenges that female founders face, whether it's from not being able to fundraise as successfully as male counterparts, whether it's balancing family life with work life.

[00:09:26] This is a generalism.

[00:09:28] This definitely doesn't apply to all females and males, but women can have lower confidence levels and therefore not shout about their successes as much as men.

[00:09:36] And obviously, they have maybe more of a fear of failure, maybe because of the family they've got to look after as well.

[00:09:41] So, there definitely are biases still.

[00:09:44] But, I mean, as a market, we've seen that, I think, 2023, more female-founded businesses were founded than ever before.

[00:09:51] So, there's definitely more confidence, whether that's related to off the back of COVID, being able to work from home, balancing family life better.

[00:09:58] Maybe social media has made advertising more accessible for more people.

[00:10:02] So, that tide is turning that women are feeling more confident in starting businesses from the perspective of actually raising and just the investment landscape.

[00:10:09] There's loads more communities out there now who are trying to increase diversity.

[00:10:14] So, female founders rise as a community that we work with quite heavily.

[00:10:18] So, they're doing great things, obviously, to help upscale, give guidance, provide a network to female founders in the ecosystem.

[00:10:25] At Seedlegals, obviously, we're committed to promoting diversity.

[00:10:28] We did the first Seedlegal Startup Awards earlier this year, and I think over 40% of the winners were female-founded businesses.

[00:10:35] So, we are trying to do our bit as well to celebrate the success that female founders have.

[00:10:39] And we work with a lot of VCs and angel investors who are trying to promote more diversity in their portfolios as well.

[00:10:45] So, I think there is a tide shifting, but it's slow progress.

[00:10:49] But definitely, people are more aware of it these days than they were before.

[00:10:52] And do you have any internal initiatives or targets around really encouraging those female founders?

[00:10:57] You talked about a couple there.

[00:10:58] But do you actually look at, right, we want to have a specific amount of the companies we're working with as female founders?

[00:11:04] We don't have any specific targets because, obviously, we try to make it accessible to everybody.

[00:11:08] So, we will help anybody who comes in, but we are leveling the playing field by having the tools, the community, the platform to try and simplify the process for as many people as we can.

[00:11:18] We do quite a lot of events and webinars, so we do try to make them as inclusive as possible, whether that's running breakfasts or during day time hours rather than doing out-of-hours events.

[00:11:28] Where, obviously, some women and men obviously can't attend because of childcare.

[00:11:31] We actually are in the process of partnering with a company who's promoting an event where they've got childcare services on site.

[00:11:37] It's things like that that are important.

[00:11:39] One more question on this subject.

[00:11:41] I think it's really interesting.

[00:11:42] Do you find that your conversations with female founders are very different to male founders when they're exploring the options with seed legals?

[00:11:49] Yeah, I would say that they maybe have more questions because it's probably their first foray into starting business.

[00:11:56] And we speak to a lot of first-time founders, whether they're male or female, to be honest, anyway.

[00:11:59] But maybe less confidence from the female side because they don't know as many people who've done it before either.

[00:12:06] So it's kind of that, if you can't see it, can you be it, kind of mentality.

[00:12:10] So yeah, definitely even more questions and less confidence, I would say.

[00:12:13] And that's where the communities can really help that you're working with.

[00:12:16] Exactly.

[00:12:16] So how long have you been CCO now?

[00:12:19] Ten months.

[00:12:19] And that covers everything from?

[00:12:22] Marketing, sales, account management, partnerships, international.

[00:12:25] So doing sales before, what's been your biggest challenge making that transition?

[00:12:29] Because it's a different part of your career now, a different part of the journey.

[00:12:32] What have you found challenging?

[00:12:34] Well, I think in any company or any role, trying to bring all of those teams together, we felt more siloed previously.

[00:12:40] But obviously in sales, we are the voice of the customer.

[00:12:43] We get all the customer feedback.

[00:12:44] And both companies that I've had my career at, marketing sales don't tend to talk as much as they should.

[00:12:50] And so marketing will be working on initiatives that sales aren't aware of.

[00:12:54] Sales haven't provided feedback or guidance on what they think would work.

[00:12:57] So trying to bring the teams closer together has definitely been a challenge, but hopefully one we've had more success at this year for sure.

[00:13:03] Has it given you a different perspective?

[00:13:05] Yeah.

[00:13:05] Because if you're sales thinking about how to connect the dots and making sure that the sales team do what the marketing team need to know.

[00:13:11] Yeah.

[00:13:11] So I think when you're in sales, you just think, why aren't the marketing team giving us enough leads?

[00:13:15] Yeah.

[00:13:17] So it definitely hasn't given me more perspective on that.

[00:13:20] And there's not as many kind of quick fixes.

[00:13:23] And obviously marketing, a lot of it is a much longer term play.

[00:13:26] So glad to hear you say that.

[00:13:28] Thank you.

[00:13:29] So that's what I've learned.

[00:13:30] It's an infinite game.

[00:13:32] Everyone's too short term.

[00:13:33] You know, everyone wants everything in a five year cycle or yesterday or on demand, however you want to look at it.

[00:13:40] A funding circle, you had like a team of 60.

[00:13:43] How many in your team now?

[00:13:44] 35 across sales and marketing.

[00:13:45] Running a team that's big team.

[00:13:47] So what's your kind of like non-negotiable strategies that you have with the team to be successful and make sure they perform?

[00:13:54] I think regardless of team size, obviously it depends how hands on you are based upon the team size.

[00:13:59] But when with a large team, you've obviously got then managers underneath you who are responsible for the direct report.

[00:14:04] So whether you're more hands on or not, making sure that your communication is clear, the team have clarity, they're clear on the direction of travel and the ultimate mission as to what you're trying to achieve.

[00:14:15] It's so easy just to say, we're going to do this and we're going to do it now, but not really give them the why.

[00:14:21] The why is crucial to make people come along the journey with you and just believe in ultimately what you're trying to do.

[00:14:28] So that would be definitely kind of non-negotiable for me.

[00:14:30] And then the other thing would be clearly setting benchmarks and expectations for the team.

[00:14:35] So what does a good day look like?

[00:14:36] What does a good month look like?

[00:14:38] Whether that's activity related, revenue, output, and making sure that people are clear on that from the outset.

[00:14:43] Do I ever forget the why?

[00:14:44] Yeah, it's easy to do.

[00:14:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:14:46] I think in some businesses it's clearer than others.

[00:14:48] Absolutely.

[00:14:49] And sometimes you're so in the weeds, you kind of forget about why am I actually doing this?

[00:14:52] You've got such a broad remit.

[00:14:54] How do you work out how much time to spend in each area?

[00:14:57] Marketing, sales, rev ops, and ensuring alignment at the same time and managing the team overall?

[00:15:01] I think it also depends on the priorities at the time.

[00:15:05] So I try to split the week and we have like our commercial leaders meetings.

[00:15:08] I'm definitely probably still spending more time with sales because ultimately they're the ones with the targets on the back and the things that you need to actually provide support and guidance on day to day.

[00:15:19] But generally it depends on the kind of key projects and initiatives we're working on as to whether who gets the most time and dedication.

[00:15:25] But making sure that you delegate tasks out, not just tasks, sorry, but you delegate out effectively.

[00:15:31] So tasks and responsibility, but those check-ins and that people are communicating back to you with what's going on.

[00:15:37] So you don't feel like you're out of the loop and you've still got sight on all the different kind of remits that you need to have.

[00:15:44] What are a couple of the initiatives that you've been most proud of over the last couple of years you've been there?

[00:15:48] Yeah. So when I first joined in the sales team, it was very siloed in the sense of we had multiple products that we sold.

[00:15:55] And at the time, the sales team was set up to sell by their specific product areas.

[00:16:00] So somebody would come to us to fundraise and then they'd want to hire a team with the fundraising that they'd obviously successfully sorted.

[00:16:07] So then they'd get introduced to an options expert at C Legals.

[00:16:10] And then if they wanted to claim their R&D badge.

[00:16:12] Because it's interesting though, because like the silos within a team, not just marketing sales.

[00:16:16] So yeah, when I first joined, there was more silos across the business and in the sales team.

[00:16:21] So we sold different product areas and within the sales team, they were split up to sell in their specific product areas.

[00:16:27] So if a founder wanted to fundraise, they'd speak to the funding team.

[00:16:30] Then once they successfully fundraise, they then might want to input an options scheme to their company.

[00:16:35] So then they'd go and speak to an options expert at C Legals.

[00:16:38] And then if they wanted to do their R&D, they'd go to an R&D sales expert.

[00:16:41] And for each of these product areas, they'd then get introduced to an actual customer experience expert after they had purchased the product.

[00:16:48] So quite quickly, you'd have maybe 10 contacts at C Legals and you didn't know who your point of contact was.

[00:16:53] And from a sales perspective, I guess then they wouldn't always necessarily do what was the best thing for the customer.

[00:16:59] Because they might say, well, do your fundraise now and we'll do your option scheme later.

[00:17:03] Because obviously that would go on their target.

[00:17:05] Whereas actually for the founder, it might have been better to do it the other way around.

[00:17:07] So anyway, so one of the biggest changes I made after the first year of being there was we split the team into new and existing business.

[00:17:14] So new business basically being getting to the point of being a C Legals customer.

[00:17:18] And then they have a dedicated account manager who throughout their whole lifetime then with C Legals would advise them, strategise with them based upon their journey.

[00:17:27] And what products and services would make sense for them at that time.

[00:17:30] So it provides a kind of much better customer service and experience for the founder.

[00:17:33] When you went through that change and that transition to like having the account managers, what did you have to adapt to change your style?

[00:17:41] Because having, I can imagine having a team of 60 people who collect debt versus like going to more of a B2C to B2B.

[00:17:49] Did you find you had to make change yourself or adapt the way your style to make sure you get the results that you wanted?

[00:17:54] Yes.

[00:17:54] And it was also, I guess, just a completely different time.

[00:17:57] So managing the 60 people in collections was throughout COVID.

[00:18:00] We were navigating through working on Zoom for the first time and working from home and trying to onboard people remotely in a completely new product area.

[00:18:07] Obviously going to then a much smaller team.

[00:18:09] It's a longer sales cycle, different pitch, different sale to what we did at Funding Circle.

[00:18:14] It was very transactional.

[00:18:15] It was a singular product at Funding Circle.

[00:18:17] Whereas now we've got this lifetime that we can sell obviously different products and services.

[00:18:21] So we had to definitely, well, I had to adapt my style, but also the team structure and then making that change to new and existing business.

[00:18:28] We had to adapt everything from the onboarding pitch, the sales training.

[00:18:34] Everybody suddenly had to upskill across all product areas versus their speciality that they had before.

[00:18:39] All of the CRM processes had to change, all of the workflows, trigger points.

[00:18:43] So it was quite a big project to get that success.

[00:18:46] How did you get buy-in, not just from the leadership team to make this change, which could be a big distraction for a while, but also from the sales team who suddenly are going to have to go and do a load more training.

[00:18:57] The way that they're used to selling is all up in the air.

[00:18:59] They've got to retrain.

[00:19:00] So for that, I think, like I said before, it's explaining the why and doing it not slowly on purpose, but just slowing it down and making sure we had the data, we had the customer feedback.

[00:19:11] We knew what we were trying to achieve.

[00:19:13] And then also that was really clear to the sales team.

[00:19:15] There was loads of positives for the sales team members as well.

[00:19:18] Not everybody, I'm sure, was loving the idea, but generally it provided their day-to-day with more variety, more enjoyment.

[00:19:26] They obviously got to upskill in different product areas that they didn't have before.

[00:19:29] We were able to create clearer progression paths for people.

[00:19:33] So yeah, I think generally it was like about explaining that journey to people and also the benefits of moving to a structure like this.

[00:19:39] I think now everybody who went through that thinks it was the best thing that we did at the company.

[00:19:43] But obviously at the time, no one likes change, right?

[00:19:46] So it's just getting people through that change curve.

[00:19:48] What's been the outcome of that change?

[00:19:50] What benefits have you seen from it?

[00:19:51] Definitely increased in positive customer feedback.

[00:19:55] There was less kind of issues with having to be introduced to different people and just like lost communication along the way.

[00:20:00] People, as I say, enjoyment in their roles and just being able to upskill and increase their own development, clearer progression paths.

[00:20:08] Because beforehand, people wouldn't necessarily have gone from funding to options.

[00:20:12] They were like horizontal moves.

[00:20:14] Whereas now, if you're a new business, you can be an account exec, senior, and then similarly in account management.

[00:20:18] There's more roles that they can progress into.

[00:20:20] So I think definitely people's enjoyment and variety.

[00:20:24] That pathway thing is so important to people these days.

[00:20:27] I think especially some of the younger generations and the speed they want to.

[00:20:31] And even if it's not about getting the role up right away, I find that it's like knowing, oh, can I be senior this, that?

[00:20:38] What's that?

[00:20:39] Whereas I think 20 years ago, you just thought, oh, I've got a job and what's the next thing?

[00:20:43] It just wasn't as complicated, maybe.

[00:20:46] Maybe simplified.

[00:20:47] And they're just a lot more savvy than I was.

[00:20:49] Have you found that this has had an impact on the team culture as well?

[00:20:52] From a consistency perspective, which was one of the challenges we had before, everyone was more siloed.

[00:20:57] Everyone worked in different ways.

[00:20:59] So part of the goal was trying to create consistency across the different areas.

[00:21:03] So new and existing, yes, they have their own processes.

[00:21:05] But we do a lot of team training sessions now and everybody's aware.

[00:21:09] And we kind of use HubSpot and our CRM like in the same way.

[00:21:13] Whereas people were just leaving notes in different places.

[00:21:14] And it was really difficult to manage an account and just see what had been going on.

[00:21:18] So from a protest perspective, definitely culture.

[00:21:21] I think then people were able to bond better and understood other teams a bit more.

[00:21:26] And then ultimately, obviously, the revenue we're able to generate and the conversions from our customers was improved because they were speaking to one person.

[00:21:32] They felt like we were giving them the right information.

[00:21:34] Which makes salespeople happier.

[00:21:35] Exactly.

[00:21:36] Do you find because you're managing a marketing team, a RevOps team, sales team, we often talk about company culture.

[00:21:41] Do you find you have micro cultures within each of those?

[00:21:43] And how do you bring those together under your leadership?

[00:21:46] Something that's been helpful, actually.

[00:21:48] So when I first started, I wouldn't say there was necessarily a Seedlegals company culture.

[00:21:52] The sales team had quite a strong culture, which we had to adapt.

[00:21:56] And yeah, I think the sales team would describe they love their team culture, but they weren't really necessarily clear what Seedlegals was.

[00:22:02] About 18 months ago, we invested in our mission and values as a business.

[00:22:05] So I think that exercise has helped there be less individual cultures within teams.

[00:22:11] I mean, there are definitely still elements about, you know, marketing team do it this way or sales team do it this way.

[00:22:15] And I think it's still important for them to have their individuality rather than try to conform.

[00:22:19] But having the general mission and values as a business keeps people.

[00:22:23] It was always interesting to me at this point.

[00:22:25] So how old would Seedlegals?

[00:22:27] Did it have mission and values before?

[00:22:29] Not that it was communicated, clearly.

[00:22:31] And how old were they at that point when they did it?

[00:22:32] Six years.

[00:22:33] So I think so many companies just want to start and go, how do we survive?

[00:22:36] Or how do we get product market fit?

[00:22:37] Or how do we make some money?

[00:22:39] And if you haven't been in a startup before, like you said, you've got founders.

[00:22:43] And then they suddenly go, oh shit, we've got some employees and working and we need some values.

[00:22:48] Because when it's small, I think people just know, don't they?

[00:22:51] Or that everyone gets it.

[00:22:52] But as you start to grow, then you need to start vocalizing it.

[00:22:54] You have to re-emphasize it constantly.

[00:22:57] And repeat it and repeat it.

[00:22:59] How would you describe the culture at Seedlegals?

[00:23:02] Everybody is so passionate about what we do and really believes in the overall mission,

[00:23:08] but ultimately what we're trying to achieve for founders.

[00:23:10] I think something that I noticed as soon as I joined the sales team specifically was just how

[00:23:14] celebratory the team were and how much they had each other's backs and were just willing to give

[00:23:19] up time to help onboard train like new starters, where especially in sales, you can find teams

[00:23:25] that are a bit more cutthroat, you know, go behind people's backs and stuff.

[00:23:28] So that's always been something that we've had within the sales team.

[00:23:30] And then just company-wide, like, you know, we always do shout outs on Monday standups and

[00:23:35] give people gratitude where gratitude's due.

[00:23:37] And we do our awards and stuff.

[00:23:39] And it's just trying to recognize everybody's successes.

[00:23:42] But it's very much win and lose as one as a business.

[00:23:45] And we kind of celebrate the highs and the lows together.

[00:23:48] Do you find that you have a lot of entrepreneurs coming into the business who want to work at

[00:23:52] Seedlegals and then go off and do their own business?

[00:23:54] Yes, yes, definitely.

[00:23:55] And we've, we definitely have an attraction to people who have either done something before

[00:24:00] or maybe have a bit of side hustle on the go.

[00:24:02] And definitely for the people in the CX team and the sales team, like working at Seedlegals

[00:24:06] is people say like having a little MBA almost on the side.

[00:24:09] And, you know, you learn so much about what it would take to start a business.

[00:24:12] So yes, it does breed budding entrepreneurs for sure.

[00:24:16] Especially if they're talking to them all the time.

[00:24:17] Exactly.

[00:24:25] Because, you know, they're just starting their career.

[00:24:27] What sort of advice would you give them to be successful?

[00:24:29] You said earlier, like, I said yes to everything and just did it.

[00:24:33] But is there anything else you would pin down that got you to where you are in that, you

[00:24:38] know, over the last 10 years?

[00:24:40] I think when you're in a position, especially people these days seem to want to know, and

[00:24:43] like we said, need to know what the next path is and what the next progression opportunity

[00:24:47] is.

[00:24:47] I feel like the more you progress, it's not as obvious what that next role might look like.

[00:24:52] And so it's kind of getting yourself into the best position at that time.

[00:24:56] And you might not know what's on the horizon, but making yourself a value person in the

[00:25:00] business, taking on the additional opportunities, projects, responsibilities, and they don't

[00:25:05] always come with extra comp.

[00:25:06] I feel like people then want to get compensated for taking on extra work, but you have to

[00:25:10] almost trade off the kind of long-term gain that you get from kind of putting yourself

[00:25:15] into those positions and having the trust that that will be recognized for kind of future

[00:25:20] opportunities.

[00:25:20] The other thing that I would say is just network.

[00:25:23] And it's something my old boss, Sean Evers, used to bang onto me about.

[00:25:26] And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine, it's fine.

[00:25:29] And just didn't really invest in as much as I should.

[00:25:31] And now in hindsight, I wish I'd done more earlier in my career and I'm definitely still

[00:25:35] not great at it, but it's definitely more of a focus for me on just building your own

[00:25:39] network.

[00:25:39] Why did Sean think networking was important?

[00:25:41] Just for your own development, progression, like you never know, well, seeking ideas from other

[00:25:47] people and just like having, you know, a sounding board advice.

[00:25:50] If you want a new job, you never know when someone might come in handy.

[00:25:53] And it's just, yeah, it's for so many reasons.

[00:25:54] And I totally agree with him now.

[00:25:56] It's interesting what you say, because I think a lot of people in your situation would have

[00:25:59] said no to that debt collection option or funding circle.

[00:26:02] Actually, it sounds like that was really pivotal for your career.

[00:26:04] One thing that I'm really interested in is, is how did you end up going into sales?

[00:26:07] Because I don't know anyone that's sort of 16 says, I want to go to sales.

[00:26:10] Maybe you did.

[00:26:11] You studied business.

[00:26:12] Was that your plan?

[00:26:14] How did it come about going into account management?

[00:26:16] Definitely wasn't my plan.

[00:26:17] And I'm sure I'm not the only person that would say they just fell into sales accidentally.

[00:26:22] Both my parents had very traditional careers, dentist, lawyer.

[00:26:25] So then you didn't change jobs or didn't change careers.

[00:26:28] They were just set from the moment they kind of graduated.

[00:26:30] Sales definitely wouldn't have been their choice for me either.

[00:26:33] And when I was at university, I feel like the careers guidance at Manchester at the time,

[00:26:37] hopefully it's better, wasn't that clear.

[00:26:39] And I feel like it was either go for a graduate scheme or apply to the big four for consulting

[00:26:44] audit.

[00:26:45] So I actually did apply to the big four and got through to some final stages.

[00:26:49] Wasn't successful.

[00:26:50] And I'm now so thankful that I actually didn't get on one of the audits and programs.

[00:26:55] Audit's just not me.

[00:26:56] Anyway, I came across the funding circle role.

[00:26:58] Thought it was maybe more accountancy based because it was an account manager.

[00:27:01] Didn't really know what I was getting myself into.

[00:27:03] Bluff my way through this kind of phone screen when they asked, why do you want a role in

[00:27:07] sales?

[00:27:07] And I was thinking, I'm not sure I do.

[00:27:09] But kind of bluffed my way through.

[00:27:10] Went to the assessment centre and actually met my now husband at that assessment centre

[00:27:14] for funding circle 11 years ago.

[00:27:17] Did he get into funding circle as well?

[00:27:18] Yeah.

[00:27:19] So then we worked together for quite a while competitively, which pros and cons too.

[00:27:23] But yeah, rest was just history.

[00:27:24] Joined and absolutely loved it.

[00:27:26] And yeah, here we are.

[00:27:27] It's really funny you say that about the big four because I applied to them many years

[00:27:31] before you.

[00:27:32] And the company I was temping at the time, one of the cleanest to rule my applications out.

[00:27:36] And I just thought, I can't do them again.

[00:27:37] A massive next time they were all handwritten.

[00:27:39] And so I was like, well, clearly that just wasn't the route for me.

[00:27:42] And you also mentioned that you're very competitive.

[00:27:45] Have you always been like that from an early age?

[00:27:47] Yeah, everything.

[00:27:48] Annoyingly so.

[00:27:49] Was it mostly around sport or just?

[00:27:51] Yeah, sport.

[00:27:52] Well, you're like Monica from Friends, I think.

[00:27:54] Yeah, can be.

[00:27:55] Definitely.

[00:27:56] I don't want to play you at Scrabble.

[00:27:57] Yeah.

[00:27:58] I'm not great at Scrabble.

[00:28:00] So when you're growing those big teams, you mentioned the one through COVID or even at

[00:28:04] Seed Legals, how do you maintain high standards when recruiting quickly?

[00:28:09] So something I implemented at Seed Legals and we used to have at Funding Circle was a really

[00:28:13] clear framework for recruitment.

[00:28:15] So really getting on paper, what are the skills, behaviors, characteristics you're looking for

[00:28:19] from every candidate?

[00:28:21] Coming up with some form of scoring system so you can assess every candidate fairly and

[00:28:25] try to remove any conscious or unconscious biases that you may have.

[00:28:29] And then making sure that the recruitment team are obviously all kind of trained up

[00:28:32] and clear on what that profile looks like.

[00:28:35] We then would do wrap-ups off the back of interviews and let everyone kind of share their feedback

[00:28:40] and thoughts and then talk about the scoring.

[00:28:42] And the scoring was kind of what keeps you on the straight and narrow because obviously

[00:28:45] it's easy to kind of get bogged down in specific feedback and lose sight as to what you actually

[00:28:50] think about a candidate.

[00:28:51] So definitely having a framework and consistent scoring.

[00:28:54] And then the other thing is not just filling a gap when you have a gap.

[00:28:57] And because you might have been recruiting for ages and you haven't found the perfect

[00:29:00] person, it's so easy at that point to drop your standards and just say, fine.

[00:29:05] Any head will do.

[00:29:06] But obviously the time and effort that goes into not only recruitment, but the training,

[00:29:09] onboarding, probation.

[00:29:11] Don't compromise.

[00:29:12] Don't compromise.

[00:29:12] In your head.

[00:29:13] And you think you're not compromising at the time.

[00:29:15] And I think you've all done it.

[00:29:17] And you hire someone and it doesn't work out.

[00:29:20] And then you have to unpick it.

[00:29:21] And you think, I knew at the time it wasn't right.

[00:29:23] Yeah.

[00:29:24] But there's certain things in the framework that I think you can take more of a punt on

[00:29:27] than others.

[00:29:27] And as long as you're clear on what your non-negotiables are.

[00:29:30] Yeah.

[00:29:30] If you do like eight interviews in a day or something, they all merge into one.

[00:29:33] And then you can't remember.

[00:29:35] And you think, I just want to hire someone because I just don't want to do any more interviews.

[00:29:38] I could do like 14 calls in a day of any type.

[00:29:40] Right.

[00:29:41] Pernills, customers.

[00:29:42] But I find if I do back-to-back interviews, it's the thing that just, I'm like dead.

[00:29:46] So you thought you were going into accountancy, account manager.

[00:29:49] Sales, debt collection, CCO.

[00:29:52] What's next for you?

[00:29:53] The next big challenge.

[00:29:54] I would love to start my own business one day.

[00:29:57] So it's my aspiration as well.

[00:29:59] I love that.

[00:29:59] I'm very much at the ideation phase.

[00:30:02] And we need more female founders.

[00:30:03] We do need more female founders.

[00:30:04] So I don't know, I have a different idea every week and I haven't stuck on one yet that I think

[00:30:09] makes sense.

[00:30:10] So it's not on the immediate horizon, but that's definitely something I'd like to do.

[00:30:14] Further, just increasing diversity in leadership teams.

[00:30:16] I'm the only female on our executive committee currently.

[00:30:19] And so yeah, trying to bang that drum and get more people through.

[00:30:22] That's great.

[00:30:23] We've got some quick five questions to wrap up.

[00:30:25] So in your career, what's the biggest lesson you've learned?

[00:30:27] Make time for yourself and your own development.

[00:30:31] So that kind of ties back to my networking point.

[00:30:33] It was always something I've always just been so busy with the day-to-day that you kind of

[00:30:36] forget to think about your bigger picture and your growth.

[00:30:39] And so even if it's just blocking out an hour and a half a week and, you know,

[00:30:43] scheduling a couple of meetings or sending out some LinkedIn messages or attending an event

[00:30:46] or whatever it is, just prioritizing yourself would be a learning that I haven't done

[00:30:50] as much of as I should have.

[00:30:51] What's one belief or perspective you've changed your mind about?

[00:30:55] Probably controversial, but work-life balance and having a good work-life balance.

[00:31:01] I strongly believe, obviously, you want people who are committed to your company and to their

[00:31:04] job and obviously you want to do well.

[00:31:06] But I strongly encourage and believe that you're only on this earth for a relatively short period

[00:31:11] of time and you want to make sure that you live your life the fullest, both in work

[00:31:15] and outside of work.

[00:31:15] So making sure that you have a really clear distinction between work and outside of work

[00:31:19] and just kind of enjoying both aspects with a healthy level.

[00:31:22] I think that's a really interesting point.

[00:31:24] We could dive into a topic about it all day, but I think it depends on the person as well.

[00:31:28] Like what is that balance to someone?

[00:31:30] They might do one long day, one short day.

[00:31:32] Exactly.

[00:31:32] And how you split that.

[00:31:33] It goes back to flexibility, right?

[00:31:34] One book or podcast you'd recommend to our listeners?

[00:31:38] I really like Harry Stebbings' 20VC podcast.

[00:31:42] So he's just super enthusiastic, asks some hard-hitting questions.

[00:31:46] I like that the people he gets on the podcast are on the podcast trail.

[00:31:50] They're kind of different people to who you'd expect.

[00:31:51] And obviously just kind of hearing insights from some of the best tech businesses,

[00:31:55] leaders, producers out there.

[00:31:57] Thank you.

[00:31:58] Thanks so much.

[00:31:59] Thanks so much for having me.

[00:31:59] It's been great.

[00:32:03] Really interesting that Ali was very aligned with Flo

[00:32:07] and how some of their career progression was down to them just saying yes

[00:32:11] and not being afraid to take a risk,

[00:32:13] but also not looking for any specific benefit.

[00:32:17] Like I want a pay rise.

[00:32:18] I want a job title change.

[00:32:19] I'm just going to go in and see what happens.

[00:32:21] Yeah.

[00:32:21] Like the feeling I got from it is like,

[00:32:23] I'll take a punt and hope that, you know, I'll get paid back on this.

[00:32:27] You know, if I do this extra thing for the business,

[00:32:30] or I take this risk or I show them what I can do,

[00:32:33] that I'll get rewarded eventually rather than going,

[00:32:36] oh, I'm going to do this now.

[00:32:37] What are you going to give me?

[00:32:38] Yeah.

[00:32:38] What's the benefit for me in this?

[00:32:40] Would you have done it if you'd been offered an opportunity and said,

[00:32:42] you can move sideways into debt collection from sales?

[00:32:46] What do you think your response would have been?

[00:32:47] That was an interesting risk because like you said,

[00:32:50] not many people have done it.

[00:32:51] I think I can think of times where I've done it,

[00:32:54] like been running a big team and then got asked,

[00:32:56] you've got to go and run the New York office and do tiny team again.

[00:33:00] And start it all from scratch.

[00:33:01] I did that Royal Gateway.

[00:33:02] You did get to go to New York though.

[00:33:04] Yeah.

[00:33:04] But then I ended up living in New York,

[00:33:06] probably wouldn't have started Jiminy, Shelley.

[00:33:08] So like I can think of people at all.

[00:33:10] But yeah, I think you've got to take that risk and think,

[00:33:12] what am I getting?

[00:33:13] I'm giving up something,

[00:33:14] giving up this big team where the sales targets will work.

[00:33:17] And it was great to go to try and work it all out again.

[00:33:20] It was like a different chapter.

[00:33:22] So I think, yes, I would have.

[00:33:23] But then she mentioned being entrepreneurial at the end, right?

[00:33:26] So she's going to be more risk taking.

[00:33:29] Do you see that characteristic come through in some of your team?

[00:33:32] Yeah, I see people with more entrepreneurial spirit.

[00:33:35] Like I call it that because people band that label around quite a lot,

[00:33:38] companies and stuff, you know,

[00:33:39] but you don't have to ever bound a company or build a business.

[00:33:44] You can have entrepreneurial spirit.

[00:33:46] What I mean by that is, do you think outside the box?

[00:33:50] Do you want to do that a little bit more?

[00:33:52] Are you that bit passionate about what you're doing in your career?

[00:33:55] You know, just entrepreneurial spirit.

[00:33:57] How I was going to crystallise it, you see people who behave like it is their business.

[00:34:00] Yeah.

[00:34:00] And also they're looking for where the big problems are,

[00:34:03] which is what Flo was saying.

[00:34:04] You know, where's the problem?

[00:34:05] And how can I support that for the good of the business?

[00:34:07] And that's exactly what Ali did.

[00:34:08] Like there's a real opportunity here for the business.

[00:34:10] It may not be the area that I'm currently focused on.

[00:34:13] And it's a bit of a sideways step,

[00:34:14] but this has potentially got loads of advantages.

[00:34:17] Other people in the business generally find more challenging

[00:34:20] because they're the people who are busy.

[00:34:22] They might be creating lots of tickets about things.

[00:34:24] There might be a pushing, but it's because they're those sort of people.

[00:34:27] Yeah.

[00:34:27] They want to move the business forward.

[00:34:30] Thanks for tuning in to Scale Sessions.

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