Rethinking Learning, Competency, and Careers with Rachel Kay

[00:00:00] I forget being at a meeting with the Navy. We were bidding for a contract and we were all sat around the table and I was the only female in the room and I think I had it as my superpower.

[00:00:10] Welcome to Scale Sessions, the podcast that helps revenue leaders like you boost sales and revenue to achieve business growth within the trenches insights.

[00:00:19] We can skip the fluff and focus on real world strategies you can use right away.

[00:00:24] Each episode brings you actionable takeaways from sales and revenue leaders navigating growth challenges like you.

[00:00:30] Let's dive into today's session and scale up your success.

[00:00:33] So we're excited to welcome Rachel Kay. She's a seasoned leader in learning solutions with over 30 years experience.

[00:00:39] Currently she's serving as Director of Education at Learning People.

[00:00:42] Rachel has held senior board positions including Chief Learning Officer at Babington where she drove product development strategies to address client and industry challenges.

[00:00:51] So Rachel, EdTech, my favorite space. I spent four years there at my tutor.

[00:00:55] I'm quite disappointed though that we had no Director of Education.

[00:00:59] What a fabulous title and I think this moves to CEO, Chief Education Officer shortly.

[00:01:04] Tell me a little bit about what this role means and how does it relate to revenue in the business?

[00:01:09] So there are probably three deliverables that the Director of Education has to do in the business.

[00:01:15] The first one and the most important one is around student outcomes.

[00:01:17] We're responsible for making sure that the student has a smooth journey right from deciding which education program or we call them learning pathways.

[00:01:27] Which learning pathway is right for them right through their engagement with their studies and through to graduation.

[00:01:33] So the main deliverable is around student outcomes.

[00:01:36] The second is around the curriculum.

[00:01:39] So our curriculum is devised from looking at where there are jobs in the tech industry and also actually in the project management industry.

[00:01:47] So we look at the jobs that are available where they've got shortfalls in staff and talent pipelines aren't full.

[00:01:52] And we then create our curriculum based on learning and certifications in order to fill those gaps.

[00:02:00] So the curriculum is deliverable as well.

[00:02:02] And then the third one is all around service.

[00:02:05] So that's our student care team.

[00:02:07] So they help our students through their studies, whether perhaps I might have a learning difficulty and I need some extra support.

[00:02:14] Sometimes it's just a bit of pastoral encouragement.

[00:02:16] Come on, you've got this.

[00:02:17] Let's keep studying.

[00:02:19] So three things.

[00:02:20] And the reason why they connect with revenue is happy students continue to pay for their studies.

[00:02:26] Yeah.

[00:02:26] So all of our students are self-funding and quite often they might be paying for their studies over a period of time using finance, for example.

[00:02:32] And we need to keep them really happy, not just because we want them to graduate, but from a commercial point of view, clearly happy students continue.

[00:02:39] So it's like a product and customer success role.

[00:02:41] Very much so.

[00:02:42] Combined because you're looking at like, where are the gaps in the market where we need to be upskilling?

[00:02:46] And then also customer success.

[00:02:47] Let's make sure that they're happy and great outcome.

[00:02:50] New job.

[00:02:50] Absolutely.

[00:02:51] So the outcome at the end is our students then go on to find new career opportunities based on the certification.

[00:02:58] So it's in cyber, data, project management.

[00:03:01] Yeah.

[00:03:01] So we have, if our students pass their exams, follow the program, we have 98% of our students find themselves in a new job within six months.

[00:03:10] And it was interesting when we were chatting before, what were the top industries at the moment?

[00:03:13] So cybersecurity, project management and data analytics.

[00:03:18] Where you think there's more shortages?

[00:03:20] Yeah, because we can see that with, I mean, if you just think probably in your own businesses and probably links to revenue as well, doesn't it?

[00:03:27] Look at the data points that we all produce on an hourly basis.

[00:03:30] And what's happening with data specifically is, I mean, years ago when I first was in industry, there was a data team and it was sat by itself.

[00:03:37] And there's a big data lake and lots of data went in there and then clever people produced reports.

[00:03:42] I think what's happened now with data is that organizations are, every function's got a data lead.

[00:03:48] So marketing, HR, sales, and it's all about storytelling.

[00:03:52] In fact, we were looking the other day because our business is based in Australia and New Zealand and in the UK.

[00:03:56] And there were more data roles available in our Australian remit than there were cyber roles.

[00:04:02] So that just shows you where it's taken over.

[00:04:03] The snap point that we looked at, there were more than 6,000 data jobs unveiled in Australia.

[00:04:08] Wow. And you've had a pretty impressive career. So director of education now, non-exec director.

[00:04:14] Yeah.

[00:04:15] You've been an MD.

[00:04:16] Yeah.

[00:04:16] Which is impressive for anyone, but always amazing when you see women getting to see trials like that.

[00:04:22] What led you down this path? Like, tell us a little bit about that.

[00:04:24] I did my A-levels. I had a place at Birmingham Uni to go and do English.

[00:04:29] And it was one of those sliding door moments.

[00:04:31] I think if I'd gone to university, I'd be sat here today probably as an English teacher.

[00:04:35] I think I would have ended up teaching English, loved books, loved to read.

[00:04:41] And I didn't go to university because I probably really disappointed my parents at the time and decided to go and work overseas for a tour operator.

[00:04:49] And so I went and had some fun and I didn't come back for about six years.

[00:04:53] So I worked in Europe. I worked in India.

[00:04:55] Did different roles, mainly based overseas.

[00:04:58] But one of the things that happened is I ended up taking over the training function just because I was good at explaining to people how to do the job.

[00:05:04] And fell into training and did that.

[00:05:07] I worked overseas for a number of years, came back.

[00:05:09] And I went to work in London.

[00:05:11] I'm still actually in the travel sector.

[00:05:13] And then I ended up, I'd been on a leadership training course with a company.

[00:05:18] And I just happened to have a conversation with one of the trainers and they're like, would you be brilliant coming to work for us?

[00:05:23] Yeah, so it was a company called Talis.

[00:05:24] They're actually in the defense sector, but they have a big training function and a training business.

[00:05:28] So I started as the trainer.

[00:05:30] And so I sort of fell into it.

[00:05:32] And then I did a postgraduate degree when I was with Talis and did my qualifications when I was 28.

[00:05:39] And then, yeah, stayed there for 20 years.

[00:05:41] And after 20 years, I thought I needed to change, which is the biggest, scariest moment for me.

[00:05:44] Because I started as a trainer in Talis with their education business.

[00:05:48] And sort of 10 years later, I took over as the MD.

[00:05:52] So lots of different roles.

[00:05:53] The existing MD was retiring and I worked my way up.

[00:05:56] And they said, well, I'd like to do it.

[00:05:57] By this time, I had two kids.

[00:05:59] It was a juggling act.

[00:06:01] So I stayed in the same place and honed my career, did my studies.

[00:06:05] That's what I was going to ask is, I know you've got a couple of kids.

[00:06:07] So like, I think back, it's a difficult thing, right?

[00:06:11] Like to balance it now, even anyone with parents.

[00:06:14] How did you manage that?

[00:06:15] Moving up to a senior role, having two young children.

[00:06:18] I never forget when I was going on maternity leave when I was pregnant with my daughter.

[00:06:23] I remember saying to my boss, because I had a sales director role at that point in the training business.

[00:06:28] And I remember saying to him, I'm coming back and I'll be back full time.

[00:06:31] He was a dad himself.

[00:06:32] He was a great guy.

[00:06:33] And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:06:34] And I remember I had the baby and he called me afterwards and just say congratulations.

[00:06:39] And I went, I already know I can't come back full time.

[00:06:42] I can't leave this baby five days a week.

[00:06:44] And he's like, I was waiting for you to say that to me.

[00:06:46] So this was somebody that was incredibly understanding.

[00:06:48] So I went back three days a week for a little while and then different jobs.

[00:06:52] And then five years later, I had my son.

[00:06:54] By that time, I'd taken over as MD.

[00:06:55] I couldn't do that job three days a week.

[00:06:57] So yeah, really organized person.

[00:07:00] Thank goodness for childminders.

[00:07:02] Good, supportive afterschool clubs.

[00:07:04] And I've produced two really independent, confident kids who never had separation exercise.

[00:07:10] Because I think, you know, they were always in different environments.

[00:07:13] But I love being a mum.

[00:07:14] It's my best job.

[00:07:15] And they're my biggest and most proudest outcome that I've ever produced is two great kids.

[00:07:21] So they're 17 and 22 now.

[00:07:23] You mentioned that you had an incredibly understanding boss who almost knew before you that actually

[00:07:28] it was more likely you were going to come back part time and was very, very supportive of that.

[00:07:31] And yes, he was a dad.

[00:07:32] But I know that a lot of women have really struggled in senior roles in very male-dominated

[00:07:38] environments with that understanding of how to juggle kids and work.

[00:07:41] How have you found that working in predominantly very male-dominated environments?

[00:07:45] Yeah, I think when I first started, and I was in my late 20s at that point, I was a bit oblivious to it actually.

[00:07:53] I mean, the organization I worked for was 85% male.

[00:07:55] The average age was 45.

[00:07:59] So not only was I female, but I was young.

[00:08:02] And I progressed my career reasonably quickly with the roles that I was taking.

[00:08:06] So oblivious for a little while, I was just like getting on with my career.

[00:08:09] And if I had to work with these people and they happened to be men, then I couldn't really see that gender divide.

[00:08:14] And then as I became more senior and I found myself sat in boardrooms that would dominate in being the only female.

[00:08:21] And because I did some work within the defense sector and quite often would find myself in a meeting, I never forget being at a meeting with the Navy.

[00:08:28] We were bidding for a contract and we were all sat around the table and I was the only female in the room.

[00:08:34] And I think I had it as my superpower because not only was I the only female in the room, I was one of the only people in the room that knew anything about training.

[00:08:42] So you've got this like group and I could have just sat there and felt slightly intimidated.

[00:08:46] I'm not from a Navy background.

[00:08:48] You know, a lot of what they were talking about was incredibly technical.

[00:08:51] There was a lot of pressure because it was a sales environment.

[00:08:53] So it was a bidding meeting.

[00:08:54] And we're there to impress.

[00:08:55] It's all let's roll in Rachel.

[00:08:56] She knows all about learning.

[00:08:58] So I think as my career progressed, I used a bit as my superpower sometimes to be the only female in the room.

[00:09:03] And I don't think I ever felt discriminated against in all my career.

[00:09:07] And I've been working for more than 34, 35 years now and I've never felt discriminated against.

[00:09:12] But I was saying to you earlier, the only one thing once was your educational background.

[00:09:17] So just moving on to like high performing teams, coaching, something I'm very passionate about too.

[00:09:22] But I think you probably, like all of us, have seen that change going from everyone coming in the office to getting hybrid.

[00:09:28] And then got the same challenge I had in my previous business where you've got people on the other side of the world as well.

[00:09:33] So tell us a little bit about what kind of strategies and how you look at making a high performing team work across multiple GOs.

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:41] So joining Learning People and half my team are based in the UK and then the other half are split between Australia and New Zealand.

[00:09:47] So I have to work across both territories and on a worst case, it's 13 and a half hours difference in time, which is fun.

[00:09:54] So from a high performing team point of view, when I joined, I'm a huge fan of, you know, starting at the top of the funnel.

[00:10:02] So what are we trying to do?

[00:10:03] You know, what mountain are we climbing?

[00:10:04] What does the summit look like?

[00:10:06] So starting with a really clear vision of what the function, so direct education, what is it meant to deliver?

[00:10:12] What does it look like?

[00:10:13] And then I worked with the teams in both Australia, New Zealand and the UK to then do a bit of a sort of root cause analysis of where we're doing some great work and where we had some opportunity to improve and particularly around the curriculum.

[00:10:24] But that's when I had to start to think about country differences, because perhaps even though there's a similar skills challenge across all of the territories, there are some cultural differences.

[00:10:34] So start at the top of the funnel.

[00:10:35] What's the vision?

[00:10:36] What we're trying to do?

[00:10:37] Then agree to set objectives around the things that we really need to focus on.

[00:10:40] And then my go-to, and I learned this, I think, from being in a large corporate for 20 years, I'm a huge fan of a project.

[00:10:47] I'm not a project manager, but I have learned to help teams perform really, really well by giving some boundaries to what we're trying to do.

[00:10:56] So giving it some clear objectives.

[00:10:58] What are the outcomes?

[00:10:59] What's the time frame?

[00:11:00] What budget have we got to do it?

[00:11:02] So effectively running little mini projects.

[00:11:04] And then what I asked different team members to do, some in the UK and some in Australia and New Zealand, is I asked them to own those projects.

[00:11:11] So what I was coming together then is that was the summit we were going to.

[00:11:15] We might all traverse up the mountain in a slightly different way, but actually the goals are the same.

[00:11:19] And we've got these projects that are helping us achieve and improve performance.

[00:11:23] And then, yeah, regular one-to-ones, coaching, and allowing also the teams to work across projects.

[00:11:29] So I know you're working on the project around one person working on our exam process and another person working on our customer complaints, which, you know, great companies have customer complaints.

[00:11:38] New process to make sure that we were dealing with that effectively.

[00:11:41] And actually those teams work together.

[00:11:42] So lots of communication, using projects to guide people, objectives, regular one-to-ones.

[00:11:49] I'm a huge fan.

[00:11:51] And boundaries.

[00:11:52] That's the thing, setting people's expectations.

[00:11:54] You say, oh, I find myself in doing it.

[00:11:56] It's like, oh, right, we're going to do this.

[00:11:59] But then if you don't tell people when by and what your expectations are around it, then it can get a bit messy.

[00:12:05] How far are you at the summit?

[00:12:06] I've been here a year, just literally, two weeks ago.

[00:12:10] So I feel from a curriculum point of view, we're, yeah, we're probably about 75% of where I want to be.

[00:12:18] I've still got some work to do.

[00:12:19] We've done really rapid sprints.

[00:12:22] So we've launched two new projects.

[00:12:23] We've done a project refresh in our project management curriculum.

[00:12:27] But this is because it's teamwork.

[00:12:29] It's not me.

[00:12:30] I mean, it might sound like a great achievement in 12 months.

[00:12:33] But, you know, I've got a great team.

[00:12:34] I don't have a huge team.

[00:12:35] So I have one other person in the curriculum working with me.

[00:12:38] And then I have two student care managers, career services manager.

[00:12:42] So this isn't a team of 20.

[00:12:44] But we've focused on the priorities.

[00:12:46] We've looked at the things we're going to.

[00:12:48] I'm a huge fan of, you know, will it make the boat go faster than the book?

[00:12:52] And that's what I keep thinking.

[00:12:54] If I nudge this, are we, you know, is commercial performance going to improve?

[00:12:57] You know, we've obviously worked with Jiminy.

[00:12:59] And all of those tools that we brought in, it's how can we get better student outcomes quicker, faster?

[00:13:04] And you talk a little bit about the cultural differences.

[00:13:07] And I think often we make the mistake of, oh, UK, Australia, New Zealand, they're all English speaking.

[00:13:11] What are some of the cultural differences that you've really had to handle?

[00:13:14] One of the cultural differences that I wasn't aware of, actually, is the cultural difference between New Zealand and Australia.

[00:13:20] They're very different.

[00:13:21] They have a slightly different outlook on business and how they operate.

[00:13:25] And it's not in a negative way.

[00:13:27] It's just different.

[00:13:28] And then obviously you have the UK.

[00:13:29] So where I might have, you know, I'm sure not to insult any Aussies or Kiwis, but I sort of bunched it together as a territory.

[00:13:37] And they're not.

[00:13:38] They're actually too different.

[00:13:39] Our students are different.

[00:13:40] And I think how the team's work are different.

[00:13:42] It's a different way of life.

[00:13:44] And that influences how people turn up to work.

[00:13:46] And then also you've got the UK.

[00:13:48] What I've done is, again, what I learned when I was in Talos, because Talos was a global business,

[00:13:53] I've accepted that, and I talked about the team literally in my first week, 80% of what we do as a functioning team needs to be consistent.

[00:14:01] So we will set policy procedures, approaches, that where 80%, we're all going to be doing the same thing because the business needs that.

[00:14:08] We can't have lots of people doing different things, yeah?

[00:14:10] We need to be efficient.

[00:14:11] We're a small team, private equity owned.

[00:14:13] We've got targets to achieve.

[00:14:14] But what we can all agree on is that 20% will probably be to allow for cultural differences.

[00:14:20] So you've always got that.

[00:14:22] Because I could have come in and said, right, okay, everybody does it this way now.

[00:14:24] This is what we're doing with the curriculum.

[00:14:26] We all sell the same product.

[00:14:27] The pricing strategy is the same, but it's not going to work.

[00:14:30] So we have this flexibility of something called global policies, which are where we're going to do things the same.

[00:14:37] And then we have local policies, which are we're going to do it like this in New Zealand because that's what New Zealand needs.

[00:14:43] So I've had to learn to be really flexible with our sales directors, so from a commercial point of view,

[00:14:49] because they might be pushing me on a price.

[00:14:51] I want to sell something at this price.

[00:14:53] Australia wants to sell it at this price.

[00:14:55] They've both got different GST, which is equivalent of VAT rules.

[00:14:58] And I'm like, okay, so there's more complexity.

[00:15:01] And then, of course, I've got the UK market.

[00:15:02] And, you know, my bosses are looking and saying, well, why does it look like it's, you know, a lesser commercially beneficial product in the UK than Australia and New Zealand?

[00:15:12] So using the data is a lot what I have to use as well to make sure that we've still got our...

[00:15:17] So I've introduced from a commercial point of view some sort of standards around profitability by products.

[00:15:23] That's something I'm really interested in.

[00:15:24] As a director of education, what are your KPIs?

[00:15:27] Okay.

[00:15:27] A lot of them are data-driven.

[00:15:29] So cost of product is a percentage of the sale.

[00:15:32] So I have a percentage to reach where the cost...

[00:15:34] So in other words, I can make the most...

[00:15:36] I can make the most amazing learning journey, but actually it wouldn't be profitable.

[00:15:39] Yeah, I put too much content in it.

[00:15:41] I would have too much tech in it and the margins wouldn't be there.

[00:15:44] So we have a number that we have to hit.

[00:15:46] The number of students that we get into roles is one of my KPIs as well.

[00:15:51] Also, one of the things that really helps our students who are making the decision to come and work with us is using Trustpilot or Google reviews.

[00:15:59] So I have more KPIs around the number of Trustpilot reviews that we get as well.

[00:16:03] So my team are very motivated to help students do a great job, but then they feel really comfortable with saying,

[00:16:08] yeah, I feel confident.

[00:16:09] I'm going to write about you guys.

[00:16:11] So when you talk about time to find a role, that's very similar to the sales cycle in SAS.

[00:16:16] And we've seen over the past couple of years that that sales cycle has really increased.

[00:16:20] Yes.

[00:16:20] Are you seeing the same in the time to find a role as well?

[00:16:23] Yeah, and that's tough for our students because if you think about the journey I've said, you know, they've committed, they may have studied.

[00:16:28] You know, sometimes they can qualify within six months.

[00:16:31] And some people might take it slightly longer if they're working full time.

[00:16:34] Yes, I think current challenges in the economy and, you know, we've had an election.

[00:16:41] We've had some conflicts overseas and everything that's impacted.

[00:16:45] I think organisations are holding back a little bit on growth plans.

[00:16:50] I think the 30th of October is going to be a big milestone, isn't it, in terms of what the budget talks about and the impact that has on the economy.

[00:16:58] And our students, it is all about affordability as well.

[00:17:01] So we've got to make sure that they can afford to do the studies.

[00:17:04] So it is taking a little longer.

[00:17:06] And the biggest thing for our students as well is getting organisations to accept a career changer could come into a sector where they may not have got experience.

[00:17:17] So I'm working at the moment a little bit with the construction sector.

[00:17:21] Some major players there were in their own description described sometimes the construction sector.

[00:17:27] It's not the sexiest sector to come into when you're graduating.

[00:17:29] You know, could I go and work for some, you know, high-end retail brand or some tech brand or I can go and work in construction.

[00:17:37] And people would think of it as perhaps, you know, sort of dirty role on building sites, which some of it is, but some of it's not.

[00:17:43] So the construction sector is what we're trying to talk to them about is if you had somebody that had a data qualification or project management qualification,

[00:17:51] but their background was in hospitality, would they truly get past your recruitment function?

[00:17:56] Would they get through the sitting because they don't have sector experience, but they're qualified in the skill that you need, so project management,

[00:18:03] and they've got transferable skills from probably seven or eight years working.

[00:18:07] So they can turn up on time.

[00:18:09] They work with budgets.

[00:18:10] They follow process.

[00:18:11] So the recruitment model is a bit longer because we need to get businesses to understand that career changes can fill a gap.

[00:18:19] The way you've got your early careers, which is all your apprentices.

[00:18:21] That's great.

[00:18:22] They're all coming in.

[00:18:23] And you've got your experience hours at the other end of the spectrum.

[00:18:25] But there's this marvellous middle where you can get career changes to come in and they'll fill the gap.

[00:18:30] And they've got amazing experience.

[00:18:32] All about the transferable skills.

[00:18:33] And I get asked this a lot, actually, in marketing.

[00:18:35] Oh, I've got to have someone that's from this specific industry.

[00:18:38] I'm like, OK, well, let's use me as an example.

[00:18:39] I went from photo printing through to financial services through tech.

[00:18:45] So, and it was all completely transferable.

[00:18:48] I think what you have to have is the right mindset, which is I'm insanely nosy.

[00:18:51] So I always want to learn more about that if you've got that.

[00:18:53] What we train our students to do is to help the interviewer understand how my transferable skills meet the requirements in your job description.

[00:19:01] So that's sometimes in answer to your first question can take a bit longer in the recruitment process because there will be some either conscious or unconscious bias that I don't have sector experience.

[00:19:11] And the interviewee isn't always set up for success because they don't know how best to answer those questions.

[00:19:16] So the fact that you're helping them in that space is why that's really valuable.

[00:19:20] When you asked that question to the construction industry and you said, would you tag someone?

[00:19:23] What I'm interested, what did they say?

[00:19:25] Yes, they're open to it.

[00:19:26] In fact, we're running, we're doing a webinar on the 7th of November, actually, where we've got a couple of people from one of our students that's gone into construction.

[00:19:33] And also somebody that works in project management in construction are going to come and talk.

[00:19:37] So, yeah, there's definitely an openness, but it can't just be at the top of the funnel of people saying, yes, that's a really good idea.

[00:19:44] It's actually got to get, it's got to filter down to those hiring managers, site managers that think, you know, you could have been a barista in Starbucks, but you've got the right qualifications to run a project.

[00:19:56] And you've got loads of great transferable skills.

[00:19:58] So if I'm motivated and I want to come and work for you, I'm going to do a great job.

[00:20:02] So you're talking about changing mindsets in particular industries about what a good hire looks like.

[00:20:07] We also touched on the ways that you do blended learning to ensure that everyone's getting the best learning opportunity.

[00:20:12] How do you think we're going to go back and really start changing that educational process in those early years to enable those that struggle in the current system to be able to fulfill their potential?

[00:20:21] That's a really good question, isn't it?

[00:20:24] And I'm sure I hope somewhere in the Department for Education, they're also asking that question.

[00:20:28] I think there's definitely a review of the curriculum that's needed when we think about some of the skills that we're giving students at school that are probably not the skills that they are going to actually use when they get in.

[00:20:42] So when they get into the workplace and whatever they do, whether they choose to go and work in the construction industry, they want to go to medicine, you know, they want to go work in retail.

[00:20:50] So there's something around a review of the curriculum and I would focus it much more on some of those sort of life skills.

[00:20:58] I'm not so sure that some of the curriculum that we still teach, look, in English, as I said, you know, back to my start, I was, that's what I wanted to do.

[00:21:08] I would have probably ended up an English teacher and, you know, reading Dickens and all those great novels are great.

[00:21:14] But I don't know now and probably teachers might put me right, but I wonder what some of the business books are on the curriculum.

[00:21:21] Yesterday I was at a conference and Deborah Meaden was presenting her dragoste end.

[00:21:25] She was great.

[00:21:25] And she's recently written books around finance for children because actually, and for like not teenagers as well, like really young children.

[00:21:33] Yeah, so children in junior school.

[00:21:35] We did a survey back at my tutor.

[00:21:36] She was like, what would you most like to see on the curriculum across parents, university students and kids?

[00:21:41] And they all have the same top answer, which was financial acumen.

[00:21:44] Yeah.

[00:21:44] So I think financial acumen, I think team working, communication skills and also basic technology.

[00:21:51] I mean, how many, you know, I look at my daughter coming out of university, she did a geography degree.

[00:21:55] You know, some of those real business skills that she needs, she's probably going to have to do some more training to build up her confidence.

[00:22:00] Not so competency thing.

[00:22:01] Something triggered me there when you talk about communication and you think about it in business.

[00:22:06] You've talked about all these different industries, construction, you know, everything.

[00:22:10] You talk about different geos, et cetera.

[00:22:12] And at the end of the day, it's all about still dealing with people and people understanding each other and communicating well.

[00:22:18] And it's always where it goes wrong.

[00:22:20] And adapting communication for different people.

[00:22:22] I think that was something that I really had to learn early on.

[00:22:24] What I'm saying is, if you're going to change the curriculum, like, where is it do you actually learn how to manage people or, you know, ask great questions and things like that?

[00:22:33] So there has to be no effort that people study for years.

[00:22:37] I don't think that comes up.

[00:22:38] And if you think about it, kids do learn communication skills from starting in reception, from how is it acceptable for me to ask you if I can have that toy?

[00:22:48] Because one of the things I could just do is snatch it out of your hand.

[00:22:50] It's not really going to be the best way for me to build a positive relationship with you.

[00:22:54] So I think it's really starting in the younger years, actually calling out how they're learning and some of the skills that they're using.

[00:23:02] That was a really good question you asked today in class.

[00:23:05] You know, well done, Tom.

[00:23:06] You know, communication is all about the quality of the questions that you ask.

[00:23:09] It shows intelligence, curiosity.

[00:23:11] I think we need to signpost that actually those things are important, not that the question was about why the Bunsen burner suddenly stopped working.

[00:23:19] It was the quality of the question you asked.

[00:23:21] Celebrate that.

[00:23:22] Yeah, that's all very, you know, like, oh, don't snatch and all that.

[00:23:27] But then also as well, then you get a little bit older and people do things not intentionally.

[00:23:32] So then you do have to deal with conflict and then people don't want to deal with hard questions.

[00:23:37] Sometimes something we talk about in onboarding is, you know, being able to call out things.

[00:23:41] Someone might make you, I'm sure everyone's sat in a meeting, you've sat in a meeting, someone said something that made you feel shit.

[00:23:47] And then if you leave it and you don't address it, how does that person even know?

[00:23:51] They might not know intentionally.

[00:23:53] And then Shelley's done training before the team on management, but going, oh, outside of that setting, you know, when you said that, it made me feel like this.

[00:24:00] And then blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:24:02] And then, you know, you have to, those things, as you think people aren't taught how to have those kind of important conversations, not difficult.

[00:24:09] Part of your role as a leader, I think, is how you actually do upskill your team in that area of communication, feedback.

[00:24:15] What have been some of the best strategies you've implemented to really empower your team to have great communication skills,

[00:24:22] very comfortable giving feedback, feel that it's a safe space?

[00:24:24] Well, one, I think it starts with role modeling.

[00:24:26] So I think yourself, you have to be good.

[00:24:29] And also catching people doing things right in communication.

[00:24:33] So I can think of a recent example with one of my team.

[00:24:37] And without prompt, they had thought to communicate something down to another group of people, which was just a really good idea.

[00:24:44] Could have got missed.

[00:24:46] So well done for sending that because, you know what, that's just helped us, you know, three weeks down the line.

[00:24:50] So I think catching people doing things right in communication also, I think, is a little bit of guiding and coaching about,

[00:24:59] I think certainly people when they're building their careers that I coach now,

[00:25:02] and I mentor a couple of people outside of learning people too.

[00:25:06] And one thing I learned really early on, I think it was being a trainer for years,

[00:25:10] is about the definition of what assertiveness is.

[00:25:13] And assertiveness is about I have rights and you have rights.

[00:25:16] So when we're communicating, for me, it's got to make sure that I think of the other person,

[00:25:21] not just me sending my conversation.

[00:25:23] So there's a receiver and there's a sender.

[00:25:25] Yeah.

[00:25:26] And what tends to happen quite a lot, I find with some teams is that,

[00:25:29] oh, you get some individuals as well, that they go into transmit mode.

[00:25:33] So all they're doing is tell and actually they don't ever receive the message and listen.

[00:25:37] So I think it's making sure in your team meetings that, hang on one second, X,

[00:25:42] I think we've got a really good point over here.

[00:25:44] Let's just stop.

[00:25:45] So you've got a role model at the top about what it looks like.

[00:25:48] What's the right medium as well?

[00:25:49] You know, was that the greatest thing to use that as an email?

[00:25:52] Would that have not been better over the phone or face-to-face or on teams or something?

[00:25:57] So I think talking in your one-to-ones with your teams around how they feel the communication is going,

[00:26:03] and not only in their own team, but, you know, above and below,

[00:26:06] you know, to their peers and to their direct reports and their leadership team.

[00:26:09] Yeah, message on email or in Slack or wherever you use teams is the devil

[00:26:14] because it can just be interpreted the way that you want to read it.

[00:26:18] So I like things like emojis are so important, not because you want to make it look fun.

[00:26:22] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:23] If I say, Rachel, where's this document?

[00:26:25] And read it.

[00:26:26] And you're like, oh, there's Tom, what's it now?

[00:26:28] But it sounds as simple.

[00:26:30] Rachel, when, can you send that document a smiley face?

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:33] You think, oh, okay, let's just ask.

[00:26:35] You can't always be in front of each other now.

[00:26:37] Yeah.

[00:26:38] So think how you do those things.

[00:26:40] I mean, one thing with communication is their organisation's got it right

[00:26:43] and they'll never stop trying to improve it until the end of time.

[00:26:46] Every organisation, probably they're everywhere in London today,

[00:26:49] somebody is running some sort of communications workshop

[00:26:52] or they're talking about why it's not brilliant

[00:26:54] and they're thinking about ways to improve it.

[00:26:56] I do think the advice when you've got to role model it though is so key.

[00:27:00] And if you were going to give one piece of advice

[00:27:02] to someone moving up that leadership ladder, what would it be?

[00:27:06] It's always a good question, isn't it?

[00:27:09] And I can only go with what I've done.

[00:27:10] I think in my career and the roles when I've been promoted,

[00:27:14] I was quite often doing some of those roles before I was given the job.

[00:27:18] So what was my behaviour then?

[00:27:20] I've rarely said no in my early careers.

[00:27:23] I was always a, okay, let me go away and see if I can do it.

[00:27:28] I never pretended to do something I couldn't do.

[00:27:32] I'm just, my personality is not fake it till you make it.

[00:27:35] So I've always been quite, can I really do it?

[00:27:38] And I've always been really comfortable with saying, can you help?

[00:27:40] So I think it's absolutely okay to reach out.

[00:27:43] And I think the other big thing for me is,

[00:27:46] yeah, and again, this is just my preference,

[00:27:47] but someone told me years ago about, you know,

[00:27:49] some people you meet and you might reference this in your own life,

[00:27:52] personally and professionally are radiators.

[00:27:55] And some people you meet are drains.

[00:27:58] So with the radiator type of people, they warm to you.

[00:28:01] They come to you for heat and it feels great.

[00:28:03] They roll away.

[00:28:05] And if you're the radiator,

[00:28:07] is it somebody that sort of warms everybody,

[00:28:09] comes to you and the drain is that the energy just flows away from you.

[00:28:12] I had to describe this as a personality vampire the other day.

[00:28:15] Yeah.

[00:28:16] Have you got someone who just like sucks a life out?

[00:28:19] Exactly.

[00:28:19] You want to be a radiator, yeah.

[00:28:21] So I think that's the other thing, you know, progressing up through my career.

[00:28:24] So I think there's a couple of things.

[00:28:25] I think you've got to be true to yourself.

[00:28:28] Never worry about asking a question.

[00:28:30] Someone once said to me in a client meeting,

[00:28:31] we were presenting to a bank in Ireland

[00:28:33] and really senior lady at the end of the meeting.

[00:28:35] She went, irrelevant of what your pitch was,

[00:28:38] your questions were curious and I loved them.

[00:28:41] And afterwards she'd given some feedback to one of our directors.

[00:28:43] You know, she's a really smart girl.

[00:28:44] And I took that as a real compliment

[00:28:47] because it is the quality of questions you ask show your intelligence.

[00:28:51] You don't always know the answer to that.

[00:28:52] Yeah, the biggest thing I picked up on,

[00:28:53] and I've seen it, people progress.

[00:28:56] I don't know much up past startups and scale-ups,

[00:28:59] but is you were, I haven't been there in your career,

[00:29:02] but I can imagine where you've gone through these different roles

[00:29:05] is you did the job before you were given the job.

[00:29:07] And people don't want to necessarily do that

[00:29:11] or take it upon themselves to think like that.

[00:29:14] And when I see people progress, it's like,

[00:29:16] oh, okay, just start doing those things.

[00:29:19] Yeah.

[00:29:19] And show me you can do it.

[00:29:20] Say yes.

[00:29:21] 100%.

[00:29:21] And I think that's a great bit of advice for people.

[00:29:23] And you are definitely a radiator, Rachel.

[00:29:27] 100%.

[00:29:27] So we've got some quick five questions to wrap up.

[00:29:29] Yeah.

[00:29:29] Yeah.

[00:29:30] So you've got a few seconds to answer these.

[00:29:32] So in your career, what's your biggest lesson you've learned?

[00:29:35] Really simple in my 20s.

[00:29:38] Compromise is not a weakness.

[00:29:39] What is one belief or perspective you have changed your mind on?

[00:29:43] This is a tough one.

[00:29:44] I do think in my early career, both personally and professionally,

[00:29:48] did spend a lot of time worrying about what other people thought of me.

[00:29:52] And then it prevented me probably being a really authentic me.

[00:29:57] So I've learned not to do that anymore.

[00:29:59] And I think that isn't, you know,

[00:30:00] I'm very respectful of other people's thoughts,

[00:30:03] but it doesn't keep me awake at night.

[00:30:04] So be true to yourself.

[00:30:06] And you mentioned a book earlier,

[00:30:08] but a book or podcast would you recommend to anyone?

[00:30:10] I do listen to podcasts, but really quite randomly.

[00:30:12] And my kids influence me.

[00:30:14] I went to my son's parents' evening on Friday last week

[00:30:16] and the teacher there, he's doing psychology,

[00:30:18] and she's like, you should listen to this podcast of good, bad millionaires.

[00:30:22] Right.

[00:30:22] So that's on my list for this week.

[00:30:24] So quite randomly, I listen to podcasts.

[00:30:26] My favorite book is Will It Make the Boat Go Faster,

[00:30:29] which I would definitely recommend from a leadership point of view.

[00:30:31] It's written by Ben Hunt Davis.

[00:30:32] And it's a story of the Olympic rowing team in Sydney

[00:30:37] and how they went from being a losing team to winning gold.

[00:30:41] I won't give it away.

[00:30:42] Do that annoying thing if people tell you about a book,

[00:30:43] then you don't need to read it.

[00:30:44] But there are some great stories and messages in there around

[00:30:47] team performance, focus and goal setting.

[00:30:49] So that's one for your list.

[00:30:51] How do you switch off after a busy day?

[00:30:53] How do you wind down?

[00:30:53] Well, I'm really into exercise and fitness.

[00:30:56] So that was something that came to me in my 40s, actually.

[00:30:59] So suddenly decided I need to get fit.

[00:31:01] I had a three-year-old, I think, when I was 40.

[00:31:03] And I was thinking, right, enough now.

[00:31:04] I need to spend my 30s having kids and I needed to get fit.

[00:31:08] So I run, work out, challenge myself to do at least 110k every year.

[00:31:14] So I run.

[00:31:15] I love to walk.

[00:31:16] I've got a dog.

[00:31:17] I've got my family, friends, love to socialize.

[00:31:20] I don't have any hobbies.

[00:31:21] You've got loads.

[00:31:22] Well, yeah, but I think it's a hobby,

[00:31:23] something which you'd probably dedicate more time to and have.

[00:31:26] But yeah, so I'm not somebody that has a hobby or something.

[00:31:29] But I want to learn to play better tennis.

[00:31:31] That's my thing next summer.

[00:31:33] I want to do paddle tennis.

[00:31:35] Yes, I've just started playing at Stratford.

[00:31:36] Yeah, so if you're next in London, we'll go play.

[00:31:39] Yeah, I know everybody keeps saying that's my thing.

[00:31:41] Have you put those down in Brighton?

[00:31:42] Yeah, yeah, there is actually.

[00:31:43] They're building loads of courts on the seafront,

[00:31:46] just down from the office.

[00:31:48] And last question.

[00:31:49] Anyone in your network who think we should chat to you next?

[00:31:52] 100%.

[00:31:53] She's going to love me for saying this.

[00:31:54] So it was somebody that I met when I worked in the defence sector.

[00:31:58] She was an Aussie female engineer from Australia,

[00:32:03] but she came to work in the UK.

[00:32:05] And she's been, I've mentored her for a little while,

[00:32:08] but she actually became a really close friend of mine.

[00:32:11] Even though we laugh, she would actually be my daughter age-wise,

[00:32:14] but I like to think of her as my younger sister.

[00:32:16] She's called Kimberly Abbott.

[00:32:17] She's one of the best fintech female leaders

[00:32:20] that you'll see in the UK at the moment.

[00:32:22] She's got a great story of her background.

[00:32:25] But yeah, you should get her on

[00:32:26] because she would tell a great story around women in innovation,

[00:32:30] women in fintech, start-ups, building your own business.

[00:32:33] She's great.

[00:32:38] What really stood out for me there was the blended learning approach.

[00:32:41] So a mix of workshops, mentors, written material, video.

[00:32:46] So it means that people who learn in different ways

[00:32:49] can find what's right for them.

[00:32:51] I think that's what's really missing in our school system.

[00:32:53] Yeah, and I think if you think about customers and people are listening,

[00:32:56] you don't have to be in a massive corporate to do that.

[00:32:59] You can do that with whatever budget you've got, right?

[00:33:02] Exactly.

[00:33:02] Overall.

[00:33:03] I think the biggest thing I took from today,

[00:33:05] obviously Rachel's got lots of great experiences.

[00:33:08] Anyone can make a great career for themselves if they really want to.

[00:33:12] And I think when you talk,

[00:33:14] you asked her the question about like what she did on that journey.

[00:33:17] And I think the fact that she,

[00:33:19] even though she was too chatting to us before,

[00:33:22] oh, you know, I have imposter syndrome or I question myself,

[00:33:26] which every single person does.

[00:33:27] And if they're telling you they don't, they're lying.

[00:33:29] But she took it upon herself to try and do the job before.

[00:33:33] And she said, yes, I'll give it a go.

[00:33:35] And if you just want to,

[00:33:36] if you're willing to do those two things,

[00:33:38] she'll progress and you'll make a great career for yourself.

[00:33:41] That's a great bit of advice.

[00:33:42] I think also you don't need to know how to do it necessarily.

[00:33:45] So it's okay to say, okay, I've not done this before.

[00:33:47] I might need some help,

[00:33:48] but I'm going to get stuck in and do all the research

[00:33:52] and use my network to work out

[00:33:54] how to get the best solution for this problem.

[00:33:57] Yeah.

[00:33:57] And she scaled herself to be an MD, a non-exec.

[00:34:00] She had two kids along the way.

[00:34:01] It's amazing.

[00:34:02] It also ties in with something that Flo said as well

[00:34:04] when we were chatting to her

[00:34:06] about looking at the messy problems that everyone wants to avoid

[00:34:09] and saying, actually, I'm going to take this one on

[00:34:10] because I can see how important it is to the business

[00:34:13] and I'm going to work out paths through this.

[00:34:15] Yeah.

[00:34:15] Thinking about it, bigger picture.

[00:34:17] Exactly.

[00:34:18] I thought that was a great conversation.

[00:34:19] Had no idea what direction it was going to go

[00:34:21] and such interesting feedback from Rachel.

[00:34:25] Thanks for tuning in to Scale Sessions.

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