SDR Success: Sophie Allen on Selling and Standing Out

[00:00:00] I've never really found that being a woman has been a disadvantage. And I know that's not the same experience for lots of women out there in the workplace. But I think that having a really strong female leader, she was always just like so powerful, so driven. She would hold her own and some in a room full of men. I think that kind of set the tone for me and made me believe that being a woman didn't mean you couldn't be as successful or would be inferior.

[00:00:27] It probably gave me an upper hand because it was a bit different to what people were expecting. Welcome to Scale Sessions, the podcast that helps revenue leaders like you boost sales and revenue to achieve business growth within the trenches insights. We can skip the fluff and focus on real world strategies you can use right away. Each episode brings you actionable takeaways from sales and revenue leaders navigating growth challenges like you. Let's dive into today's session and scale up your success.

[00:00:54] Our guest today is Sophie Allen, a trailblazer in SDR recruitment and sales coaching with over 12 years of experience. She started her career in SDR recruitment before eventually moving over to become the head of BD at Venetrix. After becoming a mother, she decided to take the leap and start her own business. Trampoline is a European talent agency helping SaaS companies hire and upskill emerging talent for SDR roles.

[00:01:21] Sophie has built her career helping businesses grow while championing sales as a launchpad for commercial success. Welcome, Sophie. It's great to have you on the show. Thank you so much. We're really excited for you to be here. I was just talking about off-air before that I remember you being a trailblazer in social selling from 2015 onwards. And what you did was, one, brave, because I think most people don't brave to do it. And then you put yourself out there and now you've got like 30,000 followers.

[00:01:47] So those 3,000 SDRs and 500 SaaS companies you worked with, it's a pretty amazing achievement. But I'm always intrigued to start off. What made you jump into the world of that SDR recruitment? Like everybody, I fell into it. So I was a fresh-faced, very naive graduate back in 2012. Went to an assessment center to get a job in tech sales that was run by a recruitment company based in Manchester.

[00:02:13] And at the end of the assessment center, the CEO of that company pulled me to one side and said, have you considered working in recruitment? I had no idea what recruitment was, but I just liked the way that all the people that worked for the company that were assessing us were walking around in suits. They all looked very confident. They all had a bit of swag about them. So I was like, yeah, I could see myself doing that job as well. And said yes straight away. It was like a very low basic salary.

[00:02:41] I think it was an hour commute out of Manchester from where I was living, but I just went for it. And that's where I met Elaine, who was my former boss at Venetrix. She worked for that company as well. And then a few years later, her and I, well, she left, started Venetrix. And then shortly after that, I went with her and joined Venetrix. And that's when the kind of SDR recruitment career really took off. Well, we say hard work, a bit of luck, and then a bit of help from someone else usually gets you there. So sounds like that's our journey.

[00:03:12] Absolutely. Well, little known fact, I actually had an interview just after I came out of university for tech sales. I did not have the same experience as you, Sophie. I can never, ever, ever do this. And yeah, I went back to waitressing for a few months. Yeah, I was a waitress as well at the time. I was working in a burger restaurant and my parents were actually like, come on, you've got your degree now. You need to go and get yourself like a professional job in the world of business. So Sophie, you've jumped into a very male-dominated world.

[00:03:40] In sales, the workforce is about two-thirds to 70% male. How have you navigated this and dealt with some of the challenges as being a woman in such a male-dominated space? To be completely honest with you, I've never really found that being a woman has been a disadvantage. And I know that's not the same experience for lots of women out there in the workplace. But I think that having a really strong female leader, which was Elaine, she was always just like so powerful, so driven.

[00:04:10] She would hold her own and some in a room full of men. I think that kind of set the tone for me and made me believe that like being a woman didn't mean you couldn't be as successful or would be inferior. So for me, honestly, it's not a challenge that I've ever faced at all. I think if anything, it's maybe helped me because it subverts what people are expecting. When, you know, especially 10 years ago when I first started in recruitment, where maybe there were less women in the industry.

[00:04:36] I think that if anything, it probably gave me an upper hand because it was a bit different to what people were expecting. I love hearing that. And clearly really important to have those strong female role models as well in those senior sessions, which is what you are now. Thank you. I'll take it. It's a funny one with recruitment, isn't it? I feel like anyone I've ever met in sales has done recruitment at some point in their career. And they either try it for a little bit and go, nah, not for me, or then they kind of in it for life. I think so it's one way or the other.

[00:05:03] Yeah, I think recruitment is one of those industries that it's definitely not for everybody. And it is such a saturated industry. And even today, it still does have a bad reputation. People have had bad experiences with recruiters. And there are a lot of companies out there that aren't doing it so well. But for me, I have just always absolutely loved it. Yeah, I love how dynamic and fast-paced it is.

[00:05:29] And I actually like doing something that is really hard that not very many people succeed in because I think it gives you a unique advantage. And I think it's really helped me start my own business now, the fact that I've stuck at the exact same thing for such a long time. I was going to ask you, actually, say nearly 10 years at Benetrex. I know what it's like to work in a company for 10 years and then move on. It's rare, right? That's a big achievement in itself. Not many people stay in a company that long for these days. But, you know, what made you take the leap to start Champoline?

[00:05:59] So I think a couple of things. So first of all, because in 2020, I moved to France, which kind of was a working holiday because we'd moved the business online due to COVID. And then I quickly kind of fell in love with the lifestyle and decided I wanted to stay. That kind of changed my role, I guess, at Benetrex because a lot of what they were doing was moving back towards in-person. There were a lot of events happening in London. And because I was based here, I just wasn't really part of that anymore. So working there kind of changed for me.

[00:06:28] And also having a baby and going on maternity leave was the first time since I'd left university that I'd taken like a proper break from work. And it made me really like sit back and reflect on where do I see it going with Benetrex, first of all, and where do I see myself in the next five years? How much control do I want to have now over my time, my earning potential? I knew I was still really passionate about SDR recruitment and also about training SDRs.

[00:06:53] But I needed to kind of take it into my own hands and do something that I felt I would have more control over. But Sophie, how on earth do you manage this? You live in Nice, you've got a 13-month-old son and you're running your own business. How do you get the balance right? Well, I think remote working really helps with that because don't get me wrong, I find it really hard, especially at the moment, as I was saying before we started recording. My baby was very easy up until he hit about one year and now he does not sleep at all. And it's been very difficult.

[00:07:23] But I think just the fact that I work from home makes it 10 times easier than if I was having to drive somewhere to drop him off at nursery, then go into an office. In Nice, everything's quite close. So like the crash is a 10-minute walk away. Then I come back and I can do my full day from home. I think that definitely really helps. But I also think I'm quite like a motivated and driven person. And for me, being busy feels better than being tired and not doing anything in the day.

[00:07:52] So I think it's a mix of like the benefits of remote working, but also just my personality and my drive. And also the fact that because it is my own business now, there is only me to depend on me. So I have to make it work. Otherwise, there's not going to be any money coming in. And that's obviously really all completely in my control. Do you think you'll move back to the UK ever? No, I don't think so. I love England and there's so much that I do miss about it. But my parents come here a lot. My sister comes here a lot.

[00:08:20] I feel like this is a really great place to raise a child because of the weather and the sea, the mountains, all of the kind of stuff that you've got nearby, the bilingual element. So and also my boyfriend and his family are obviously all here. So no, I can't see myself moving back. But I do absolutely love England and I love going back. And like I say, you can't beat like the British sense of humor. I think English food is better than French food.

[00:08:46] You mentioned earlier, Sophie, you said like, oh, there's not loads of great recruiters. So if you're good at it and you stand out, then, you know, you can have a great career. You've worked with thousands of SDRs. What traits would you say you've seen? Because you've met many and I've met a lot. And it's hard to be a great SDR that's set that way. So what are the traits of a top performing SDR for you? So for me, I think the absolute number one thing is resilience.

[00:09:13] And I think that that really should be the first thing that companies are testing for when they are hiring an SDR. Because I think above anything else, it is a very hard job. Even if you've got all the automation tools, an amazing manager, a great product market fit, whatever it might be, the nature of doing a role that involves a high volume of outbound activity and lots of rejection is really tough. So I think resilience is the number one thing.

[00:09:40] Secondly, I think coachability and having like a growth mindset, wanting to learn and wanting to improve, being able to take feedback and action it is really important. And then thirdly, which kind of ties in with resilience, but I think drive, I think having like a real reason to want to do it and something like a bigger picture that's motivating you is also really important. And you're a specialist in two areas that most people hate.

[00:10:07] Cold calling and social selling that you've got 30,000 followers. Any top tips in how to improve in these areas? Oh my God, so many. So with social selling, I think that social selling is like the biggest favor that you can do for yourself as a salesperson building your personal brand because ultimately what it leads to is inbound leads. And it makes your life so much easier because you are having to do less cold outbound prospecting.

[00:10:34] In terms of social selling tips, there are honestly so many. But the first thing I would say is just get started. Don't be afraid to post. Have a plan and just start posting consistently. But there's like so much more detail that we could go into on that. And then with regards to cold calling, controversial, but I firmly believe it's a numbers game. On the days where I make the most calls, they're the days that I book the most meetings. So I think, again, like social selling, you've got to be consistent with it. You've got to have a system in place that works for you.

[00:11:04] And you need to make a lot of cold calls. So it is like a volume-based activity, in my opinion. That's interesting. I tend to agree as well in terms of activity. But I think there's a lot of hype at the moment around AI, SDRs, and is the SDR all going to exist? And all of this. And I think it's interesting. Does it go full circle? And can you have an AE or what you used to call a BDM basically do the prospecting and the sales? But because of the automation and AI.

[00:11:33] But if you look at that, creativity and prospecting, how important do you think that is in the role? And what have you seen from top performers around that? Because it's harder to do that with AI. Yeah. So I think creativity is important to an extent. I think what's more important is relevancy. So sending somebody a message or communicating with a prospect in a way that is going to hit a pain point at the right time and demonstrating that you have done a little bit of research.

[00:12:01] In terms of creativity, I mean, there's voice notes, videos, direct mail. But I think that relevancy is actually more important. So sending a message, whatever that might be, that you think really speaks to a pain that you think that you feel they might be experiencing based on some research that you've done. I think that's the best way to resonate with a prospect. In terms of creativity, though, I had a lot of success back in the day doing handwritten letters because it was something that not very many people were doing.

[00:12:31] And it just immediately made me stand out. So I remember I won Darktrace, which is a really prestigious SaaS company as a client because I sent the commercial director a handwritten letter. And he said that I was the only person that had done that. He was used to receiving so many cold calls, so many LinkedIn messages. But that just really helped me stand out. So I think the more creative, the better. But there still has to be that relevancy and that real reason and that trigger as to why you think you can help that prospect. Love that.

[00:13:00] Can't think of the last time I got a handwritten letter aside from postcards from my mom. So if your business is in SDR recruitment and training, and yet so much of the conversation that we're seeing on LinkedIn, at pavilion dinners, panel talks is, SDRs are dead. We don't need them anymore. What do you think is the feature of the role of SDRs? And do you think there still is a place for it? Well, have you ever received a phone call from a robot or an automated voice service? Yep.

[00:13:30] And how was it? I hung up immediately. Exactly. And is there anything more frustrating than when you're trying to sort something out like tax, for example, and you're just speaking to a robot and having to repeat things, say them really clearly, then you're going through to another robot. All you actually want to do is speak to a human. So that is my take on it. Obviously, who knows what's going to happen with regards to how technology is going to evolve and how good the AI is going to get. But for me personally, I think there's always going to be a place in sales for a human touch.

[00:14:00] I think sales is always going to be better delivered by a human. I think that AI can definitely enhance SDRs and create shortcuts and make SDRs more efficient. But I think the actual human touch of somebody, a human calling you or a human typing out a message will always be stronger than something that's automated and just doesn't feel as authentic. What do you guys think about that? Yeah, I was going to say, I thought the same like six months ago, but it's moving so fast.

[00:14:30] There's something called Notebook LM from Google where you can put like transcripts in and it creates podcasts and stuff. And the way they sound is so authentic to what you were hearing even six or seven months ago. So just the pace of it, a reactive cold call probably done that sounds human isn't probably that far away in reality. I mean, could you train it to then listen and respond potentially? But I think it's that thing if someone just goes on LinkedIn and goes, what's your name? Does it have to have an avatar? Does it then have to have a profile?

[00:14:57] You do that, you're on a call and they look you up and they say, what's your company? And then they look at you on LinkedIn or whatever. So yeah, I think it's going to be interesting to see how it evolves. Yeah, definitely. But I think, and again, we don't know how it's going to evolve. And like you say, it is evolving very quickly. For me personally, you can, even on LinkedIn, like AI generated comments are now a thing. You can always tell when a comment's been written by chat GPT versus somebody genuinely typing it out. At least I can anyway.

[00:15:24] I think we're a long way off AI being able to trick us to thinking we're speaking to a human, for example. Do you think though, Sophie, that the types of attributes you need to be a successful SDR now versus two or three years ago have changed off the back of all the AI tools out there now? I think so. But I also think that a lot of businesses feel that the market is very crowded by all of these tools.

[00:15:48] And as much as there are a lot of them, there's also a lot of talk about how like automated sequences aren't really working. So I think like the fundamentals of the role are still the same. I think that SDRs being able to learn how to use these tools quickly and adapt to the different technologies is definitely a skill that they need now that maybe they didn't used to have.

[00:16:09] But I think the fundamentals of like high volume activity, being able to like research a prospect, deliver a message that feels very personalized, sound confident when you're speaking. And all of that type of stuff probably is still the same. And have you found that when you're pitching to new clients that this is now your biggest objection? Well, actually, do we need them? Not really, to be honest with you. I mean, I haven't spoken to any companies that don't feel they need an SDR model in order to generate pipeline.

[00:16:36] So I know there are businesses out there that are selling AI SDRs, but I personally haven't faced that as an objection yet. Yes, interesting. I think some companies have been running tests, AI versus real life SDRs. And I don't think AI has beaten it yet. No, but I mean, I spoke to a candidate last week who was going through an interview process with a company, only interviewing with AI on video.

[00:17:00] And the candidate experience was just really poor because it made him think like, you know, this company, it feels like they're not that invested in who they're hiring because they're using like a robot to have all of these conversations with me. It doesn't make me feel very valued as a candidate. So I definitely think there are like two sides to it. Are you using AI in any of your training now? No, I'm not. My training is very practical around cold calling and LinkedIn social selling personal brand.

[00:17:28] And I think that with both of those channels, authenticity and personality are the key things that land with prospects. So no, I'm not incorporating any AI. You said about poor candidate experience there. And the trick is always retention, right? Doesn't matter what size company you are, you want to retain the right talent. Why do you think companies fail to retain talent? What do you think are the pitfalls there? I think that mismanaging expectations is probably a big thing.

[00:17:55] So I think that transparency is a key to success when you hire SDRs. And even if it's going to take them like 18 months, for example, to start to progress into that AE role, as long as their expectations are fully managed along the way and they're having regular check-ins about their progress, about what the next step looks like, about what they need to do to get to that next step. I think companies see far more retention. I think that when people feel that things aren't clear, that's when it goes wrong.

[00:18:25] And also, I think that now, I think that things like perks and benefits and things to do with company culture were key things that candidates looked for. Whereas now, after everything that's happened in the economy over the last couple of years, I think candidates really want to feel like it's a stable company to join and that they're going to get lots of training and development. And also have a very clear path to progression.

[00:18:51] So I think training and just making sure the progression milestones are really clear are probably the key things to retention now and also attracting talent. Yeah, that's my question. I think so often we focus as a candidate. It's like, oh, I've got to find the right candidate for this company. But it's also about the candidate finding the right company that's a fit for them. And businesses forget that if they want the best talent, they've got to actually show why they should join that company because they're likely to get, multiple offers.

[00:19:18] How do you work with companies to make sure that they are setting themselves up for success when they're actually recruiting for SDRs as well? And they're creating that right culture to attract them? Yeah. So I think, again, SDRs now are thinking about things like product market fit. Does that company solve a genuine problem? Are they selling something that's needed or is it a nice to have? I think that's definitely a conversation that I'm hearing way more from SDRs now than I used to, where, like I said, it did used to be.

[00:19:48] What's the basic salary? Are there any trips to the US type stuff? And so I think educating companies around like what's really important to candidates now is very important. And making sure that that's a key part of the interview process when they're telling the story of the organization. They're focusing on like why does this product matter? What's the problem that it's solving? What do our prospects' lives look like without our solution? And why does that matter? I think is really important.

[00:20:15] I think other things like having an interview process that feels really aspirational and also fast-paced because it is so competitive to get the best candidates. When companies take too much time, they do lose out on them. So, again, educating companies around how many different steps they should have, who should be involved in those conversations with candidates, what the kind of overarching message should be. Talking lots about vision, how the role could evolve is really important to attracting top talent. I said something interesting the other day.

[00:20:45] There was a bit of advice saying when you have good talent, even if you haven't got a promotion or whatever, try and find a path for them as quickly as possible if you know that they're good. Otherwise, you do tend to lose them. Bring in a structure earlier than you think, whether it's mid-level, senior, even if your business is slightly smaller. So these people can feel like they're progressing and you can progress them quickly. Yeah, definitely.

[00:21:07] And I think also being very transparent with them about why there might not be a promotion yet and what the kind of impact of their role is having on the business and how if they continue on in that role and continue to be successful, this is the impact that it's going to have on the business and what door that will open for them internally. I think just being as honest and transparent as possible so they don't feel like they're just waiting for things to happen and they're not quite clear when or why they're not happening. Communication. Yeah.

[00:21:35] What we often forget about is those first three months as well. There is nothing worse as a recruiter than one month in either the candidate or the client saying this isn't really working for us. And I think often we're so excited about bringing someone in that we forget about their onboarding process. What's your advice to clients in how best to onboard new SDRs? So I think that's really true. And I think that's another thing about going back to your previous question, when companies are saying like, how can we attract the best people?

[00:22:02] I like to have a really clear understanding of what their onboarding plan looks like because a lot of companies say things like, oh, we've got a 90 day onboarding. But then it's not really clear what that actually looks like in terms of how that person is going to progress through those 90 days.

[00:22:46] Having the opportunity to call some prospects that maybe are in close, lost or whatever it might be so that they can have the opportunity to have some of those conversations in a safe environment and actually gain confidence and skills in doing the actual activity that they're going to need to do. You went through that same transition I did. You're a director at Benetrex. You were there for like 10 years or whatever, and then you've gone to found your own business. How are you finding that transition from being employed and contributing like as a leader to actually running it yourself and doing everything?

[00:23:16] Yeah, I'm loving it, to be honest. I was a bit naive in thinking maybe how easy it would be in terms of like my ability to do all of the different things. And I think that when I worked at Benetrex, I was very autonomous anyway, especially because I lived in a different country. It kind of felt like I was working for myself and I did a different role to the rest of the team because I was on the client side.

[00:23:40] So I've always been good at working autonomously and not needing like a physical team around me in order to do my role and feel motivated. But yeah, I'm loving it. I'm loving being able to make decisions that I just feel are the right decision versus having to like talk it through with somebody else or maybe not do things the way that I think is the best for the customer, for example. And just be able to have that total control over the decisions that I make.

[00:24:06] And I think also just I've learned so much like things about like finances, marketing, building a website. When you throw yourself in at the deep end, you have no choice but to swim and you just learn so much than if you constantly can ask somebody else about, you know, what you should do or delegate a task to somebody else whose role it is within a business.

[00:24:26] I was laughing when you said it because when I went through that transition, I think when you look up and you have a CEO or a founder or a leader, part of you thinks, oh, I'd do that differently or I'd do that. And then until you go sit in the seat and understand what it's like. So I was like a year in and I turned around to Glenn, who's a founder of my old company. I said, why didn't you tell me it was this snard, Glenn? And he's like, Tom, you wouldn't have listened. So you have to go find this stuff out for yourself. But yeah, I think it's still rewarding at the same time, right?

[00:24:55] You get to make the decisions, but it comes with a lot more responsibility at the same time. Yeah, definitely. And just riffing off that, this is now three months old. What's been your biggest challenge so far? That's a really good question. I think things that I thought would be hard are easier and things that I thought would be easy are harder. So my role at Venetrix was always on the client side of the business.

[00:25:21] So I kind of, when I first launched, I got loads of inbound leads just because I think there was quite a lot of hype about it on LinkedIn and lots of people wanted to help me. And I think that in order to like generate all of your own clients and then also deliver on those requirements, you have to continuously be doing business development. So finding the candidates was actually way easier than I thought it would be because my previous experience was more on the client side.

[00:25:47] But then you spend so much time actually filling the roles that you win that you then have a bit of gap in your pipeline. So I think just the biggest challenge is balancing doing everything and keeping your pipeline going by doing enough activity on an ongoing basis when you're also focused on like marketing, sending invoices, chasing invoices, speaking to candidates, placing candidates. What's the vision for trampoline? Where do you want to take it, Sophie?

[00:26:13] So I just want to see what it looks like in a year, to be honest with you. I haven't got like a really clear vision in mind and some advice that I got was don't stress too much about what it is right now because I'm doing a few different things and focusing on SDR roles, but also a few different markets. And I've got the training element, the recruitment side.

[00:26:33] I just want to see how this year goes without putting too much pressure on myself about what the business is going to become and then see what like organically evolves over the course of the year. I really like doing everything myself, even though it's tough. So whether like further down the line, I'd want to hire someone. I don't know. It depends like what the demand is from clients. But yeah, for now, there's no real like vision or goal in mind. It's just get to a year and see what it looks like then.

[00:27:01] Your career tells me that you will hire someone. You just didn't want to say it right now. But as soon as you get to the next stage and you feel like, oh, I've completed that, then you'll think, what can I do next? And that'll be building the team. But we'll see. Time will tell. But my bet says you will. But we like to finish with quickfire questions. So we've got a few for you just to kick off. So in your career, what's the biggest lesson you've learned in all of these years recruiting? That everything in sales comes in waves. And you need to learn to like ride the highs and the lows.

[00:27:30] And you could have the worst month ever followed by the best month ever. And you just have to remember that it's going to be bad and good. And you just have to cope with it. What is one belief or perspective you've changed your mind on? Maybe the whole evolution of the business influencer on LinkedIn. At first, I kind of thought this is not something that's going to work. It doesn't feel authentic. And I don't feel like LinkedIn is the place for this type of marketing.

[00:27:56] But now that I've seen companies have a lot of success with it, and I've actually been an ambassador for some companies myself and used their product and then posted about what's worked, I've changed my mind. I think that is an effective way to market. I'm a big listener rather than a reader, but what podcast or book would you recommend? Oh, I am loving this podcast at the moment called Masters of Medic.

[00:28:18] As I've been trying to develop my own sales skills with, you know, my business, I've been really interested in sales methodologies. And Masters of Medic is a podcast where they interview leaders that are very playbook and talk about how they've applied medic to different areas of business that they've run and deals and things like that. And there's lots of practical, actionable takeaways. So I love that one. I don't know if this is possible for you, Sophie, but if you can, how do you switch off after a busy day?

[00:28:47] Well, at the moment, I don't because as soon as my day ends, I have to run up the hill to pick up the baby from nursery. And then it's childcare all night. But I'm a big morning fitness person. So I do a lot of running before work. And that's my time to just like completely switch off from mum life, business life, and just have time to like think, be on my own, not have like the noise of the day taking over. So for me, it's all about running in the mornings before work.

[00:29:13] And last one, who in your network should we have a chat with next that you know? I'm going to say Elaine. Elaine is the most inspirational woman in business that I have ever met. And I think she'd be a great person for you to have on the podcast. Can I ask one extra question? You're really strong in social selling. Is there a particular LinkedIn post that you're most proud of? So I don't know if I'd say I'm proud of it, but I am a few years ago.

[00:29:40] I really wanted to book a meeting with a CRO of like one of the big kind of very well known SaaS companies. Couldn't get hold of him. He did a post about how he thinks you should always take risks in sales. So I jumped off a rock into the sea and recorded it and like recorded a message to him and posted it on my feed.

[00:29:59] And it went like very viral, sparked a massive debate about like the female body, women in sales, like all of this crazy stuff that I never expected. And that was kind of like a bit of a turning point where I was like, wow, LinkedIn really is an effective way to like stand out. But yeah, since then, I haven't, I don't know if I've done anything that's gone as viral. I did a live cold calling session and that posted really well because it was kind of practice what you preach. So yeah, I'd say those two.

[00:30:29] Sophie, thanks so much for coming on. We really appreciate it. I know you've, you're really busy at the moment starting your own business and having little babies. So we really appreciate you taking the time. Thank you so much. So Tom, I'm seeing a real theme here with our female leaders. They're all incredibly brave. They just put themselves out there. Yeah, I think the risk taking element, the fact that she's just, I'm going to say yes to this. I'm going to say yes to working an hour outside Manchester.

[00:30:58] I'm going to say yes to moving down to London. I'm going to say yes to moving to France. I'm just going to, a bit of blind ignorance, going to start my own business because I think it's easy. But the resilience and the drive to get there has like, she's made herself a great career. Yeah. And I also think it's that not getting too caught up in what the future looks like. Let's focus on now and see what happens with this business. I might hire people. I might not. I'm experimenting with training, with the recruitment side. And I'm a big fan of this experimentation and seeing where you end up. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:27] Everyone's got different approaches, haven't they? And I think she has a mindset, if I just do a great job at this, everything else will come. And I think too often people are like, oh, what am I going to happen in five years or 10 years? But actually, if I just do a great job at this today and be the best I can be here, the other things will sort themselves out. And you even see that with her social selling. I cannot believe she was the lady that jumped into the water that I was in awe of when she did that. 5,000 likes, I think, on that post. But again, just showing bravery.

[00:31:57] And I think so many SDRs and business leaders are so nervous about putting themselves out there on LinkedIn. She's just gone for it. Yeah, I think leading by example is a really great thing. So it's like she's showing the SDRs that she was going to recruit back then how to do it, basically. So they go through that process. They want to then get recruited by Venetrek. So they want to go through their training score and understand how it works. So just breeding that mentality and mindset. But I wrote a post about it a while ago.

[00:32:25] You still see very few salespeople of all levels actually building a personal brand. And I think whether you talked about automated SDRs, things like that. Like is someone just going to do the phone call? I do think you've got to adapt or die. And some of those methods people won't want to ever pick up the phone again eventually. And if you can't social sell, are you going to be able to be a modern salesperson? So it's interesting. But she was absolutely fantastic to chat to. How do you encourage your sales team to do social selling, Tom, to interview you?

[00:32:56] Well, we need to get better at it, I'll be honest. Like I think it's one of the things that me and our sales director are talking about. But look, I just lead by example. I think consistency is key. I've been inconsistent over the years myself. And it's just like you can be disciplined with going to the gym. You can be disciplined with seeing your friends. You can be disciplined with turning up for work every day. So it's just saying you've got to go, right, I'm going to do this. So if you're going to post four or five times a week, plan it, invest the time, think about it. That's what you've got to do. It's just consistency.

[00:33:27] I have that little anxiety moment. It's gone now. So it's like anything. I think once you do it enough times, it becomes so, I just know what I'm going to do. Yeah, I think you want to check it and make sure it's right. But no, I don't have the anxiety moment anymore. I did used to. But I think it's like anything, you feel that confident. You're about to step out on the pitch and play a match or you feel comfortable. You speak a lot in public, right? I'm sure when you stand up, you have a time, sometimes tiny bit, but you probably like got

[00:33:56] water for ducks back if you're standing up at a dinner and talking, right? But I think at the same time, always make sure that you prepare properly and you invest the time in them because there's nothing worse than standing up, hosting an event, writing a LinkedIn post. And you can just see it's been, it's a bit slapdash. Yeah, nerves mean you care. Yes, exactly. What a note to end on. Thanks for tuning in to Scale Sessions. If you found today's insights valuable, be sure to subscribe and leave a review.

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